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BIGGER THAN ME PODCAST
172. Gary Anandasangaree: National Truth & Reconciliation Day with the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations
Aaron Pete is joined by Gary Anandasangaree, the Federal Minister for Crown-Indigenous Relations, on National Truth and Reconciliation Day to discuss his journey from youth advocate to shaping policy at the UN, his work on racial disparities in Ontario’s Education Act, his commitment to UNDRIP, and efforts to improve housing and Indigenous rights through federal initiatives and treaty negotiations.
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast.
Gary Anandasangaree :Here is your host, aaron Peet.
Aaron Pete:Reconciliation is a hot topic, particularly for National Truth and Reconciliation Day. Are we on the right track or are we lagging behind? Today, I'm speaking with the Federal Minister for Crown and Indigenous Relations. My guest today is Gary Anansangare.
Gary Anandasangaree :My guest today is Gary Anandasangare, minister it is an honour to speak with you today. Would you mind first introducing yourself? Glad to be here, aaron. My name is Gary Anandasangare. I represent the riding of Scarborough Rouge Park in Parliament and I also serve as the Minister of Crown and Business Relations.
Aaron Pete:Fascinating. You are an internationally recognized human rights lawyer and community activist.
Gary Anandasangaree :Would you mind just sharing a little bit about your background? Sure, I have a myriad of experience. Prior to getting into politics, I would say my first advocacy role was to advocate for youth, particularly those who were getting kicked out of schools and were involved in the criminal justice system. So prior to even going to law school, that's the work I did running a youth organization and it really grounded me, really grounded me as a person, as someone who advocates on issues of importance. One of the things that you know I realized is that when you work with individuals, you're really advancing the rights of that individual, and I think that's critically important and I have the utmost respect for people who do that important work at a grassroots level. But over time, there's a sense of frustration that takes place because you're basically doing the same thing over and over again, getting maybe the same results like good results, but it doesn't offer transformational change, and that's one of the reasons I chose to go to law school. And even in law school, I was doing a lot of advocacy around what was called the Education Act in Ontario and we were able to get some changes to the act that essentially changed how discipline was handed out in Ontario schools. One of the critical pieces in this is that you'll find that more racialized indigenous black people will likely be kicked out of school more often than their non-counterparts. And for us, we were able to demonstrate that as we advocated for the changes to the act. For us, we were able to demonstrate that as we advocated for the changes to the act, and eventually the act was changed and we do see differences in the way students are supported and if they do make a mistake or are addressed as part of both the school system as well as the criminal justice system. So for me, that's where I started.
Gary Anandasangaree :From there I did some work at the UN Human Rights Council and advocating for accountability. You know, one of my most important interactions was with what is called the mothers of the disappeared so many mothers and oftentimes it's also the spouses who lost their husbands during the conflict in Sri Lanka, and that's really been a source of enormous pain and suffering for people. So I was able to work directly with survivors. You know, with a sense of determination that you know their loved ones will either come back or they need answers for their loved ones, and it is something that I'm able to translate in the kind of work that I do right now, because the loss of a child or a spouse or anyone in your life, without answers, without closure, leaves a lot of unanswered questions and leaves an enormous amount of pain that oftentimes haunts you and you can't let go. You can't really move on with your lives and I find that you know, the law sometimes offers hope but sometimes doesn't give you the type of resolution that you need, which is to really have the right answers for what happened to your loved one. So you know, this all kind of, I think, helped me build as an advocate.
Gary Anandasangaree :I still look at the role that I have as a minister as an advocate, as someone who's advocating for the rights of people, in this case particularly Indigenous people.
Gary Anandasangaree :I'm very grounded on the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People.
Gary Anandasangaree :I would say that's one of my guiding lights in the North Star, guiding lights and the North star.
Gary Anandasangaree :I was involved with the private members bill when, you know, roby Saganesh, the former MP, brought it forward and you know I was inspired really by the depth of support he he was able to mobilize from across Canada and we traveled the country together as part of the committee travels and you know, I remember being in Delta, british Columbia, and we had people that came from all over British Columbia and just talked about UNDRIP as such a central part of, you know, the next phase of the relationship between Canada and Indigenous peoples, and that really woke me up, really, I think, enabled me to see the potential and be able to work with our government and ministers at that time to be able to bring that into both law as well as now, the implementation of it. And again, I think this is the type of transformational things that we're able to do, you know, in government and having a path that is now grounded on an internationally recognized and understood human rights frame, but with the full view that we have so much work to do ahead.
Aaron Pete:Would you mind sharing one of the interesting pieces I find really important? As a minister, you're given a mandate letter and I find that so fascinating, just as a council member, because we get given portfolios but we don't get given mandate letters which can often give life to the approach that you're going to take. Guidance when you're having a tough time maybe choosing between one path or another. It's kind of a guiding force for you. Would you mind talking a little bit about your mandate letter?
Gary Anandasangaree :Sure, you know the mandate letter was prepared for my previous minister, mr Miller, and you know my task and the task of the team that I have at the minister's office is to be able to implement the specific recommendations that we have, the specific mandate we have to execute within government. So, within our mandate of the government, which you know could be over the next year, we have a number of things that we need to complete, including, you know, the UNGRIP action plan, as well as work around missing and murdered indigenous women in boroughs, ensuring that we work towards modern treaties, closing off treaty discussions and initiating them. So there's a range of issues that continue to be priorities for us. What I find is a mandate letter gives us, crystallizes the direction that we need to take and the priorities that we need to place on a range of issues, and it's something that we are guided by. You know, we're going to have a retreat in a couple of weeks and we will review the progress and also also again prioritize where we need to go.
Gary Anandasangaree :Um, you know, if I may suggest, like one of the things, that, um, david lametti, who who's? You know, I was his, uh, parliamentary secretary before. So they never gave a letter to parliamentary secretaries. It's to the ministers that's given. So david and I sat down and we basically tasked the specific things that I would do, uh lead, as part of the work that he was asked to do as Minister of Justice and Attorney General, and I think for any council or anyone in government, it's probably a very good, transparent way of offering our you know what we are going to achieve and maybe hold us to account in that regard. So I think there's many ways of looking at it. I look at it as a guidepost and something that is really important for us to work through.
Aaron Pete:I couldn't agree more. In July it sounds like there was a bit of a debacle Regina Crowchild she was a proxy for Chief Roy Whitney and she made some comments accusing you of being on your phone during this meeting, and it sounds like there was feedback given from your team saying that was not the case. Would you mind clarifying somewhat what took place there?
Gary Anandasangaree :Actually, you know, I did not have my, my, my phone, uh, and I wasn't looking at the phone. I mean she may not be um, in fairness to her, I don't think she may have seen, seen me up close because you know there was a bit of a barrier as well in the distance, Um, and I was sitting right beside the national chief um at that time. Um, I think it was to get the attention of the audience as well. As you know, I guess, ensuring that you know I focus on her questions. I was taking notes. I usually take notes when there are meetings and you know, sometimes we have like seven, eight, nine different interventions to which we need to respond. So I oftentimes take notes.
Gary Anandasangaree :The lawyer in me, I think, kind of naturally gravitates to that and for me it was a very important message to be open and transparent. I'm not about to correct someone of an elder in that kind of a setting. I don't think that was appropriate. But our office did send clarification to the media that reported it as such. But you know, we're also in a world of TikTok and other social medians where you know it's moved by the time that clarification goes out. But for me that wasn't the central part of my attendance at the Assembly of First Nations. You know I had some incredibly important meetings, meetings that you know led to several announcements, including, you know, establishment of tables, as well as continuous work on creating negotiations. You know the relationship is fragile, right, and the best of times is fragile. I believe that over the last nine years our government has done a lot of work to build that trust, but we're also working in a backdrop of over 157 years of colonization distrust, so you can't undo it overnight.
Gary Anandasangaree :So for me, was I irritated by it? Yes, but was I, you know? Did it change the way I do things? No, because ultimately, it is about delivering results To me.
Gary Anandasangaree :You know, I am confronted oftentimes with people who look at me not as who I am. They look at me as a representative of the crown and ultimately, you know, I respect that and I respect that I have to work harder each and every day and I respect that. I have to work harder each and every day. The only way I can overcome misconceptions or people's anxieties or anger sometimes is just to prove them wrong by working harder to do the right thing. That's not always easy and that's not always possible, but I was appointed on July, the 26th of 2023, I would say, every single morning I wake up with, you know, with this hunger to say, ok, what more can we deliver? What more can we do? Three modern treaties in British Columbia, renewal of the agreement in northern BC, ensuring that we advance Haida recognition, government recognition. So it's been a very busy summer delivering results, but I would say there's a lot more to do and that we intend to work every single day until the end of our mandate to deliver?
Aaron Pete:May I ask just on a personal note your file is incredibly challenging. As you describe. There's an incredibly long, complicated, dark history at times in regards to the work you do, and the work you're doing is incredibly important. But I just wonder personally is this file more challenging? Because you are likely always confronted with there's more to do whatever you're doing, even the biggest way you could have the biggest win of of your, your time in office, and the next sentence probably needs to be something along the lines of but there's more to do. We're not saying we're done. Has that been a unique challenge just to try and address really important issues? I'm sure the work is incredibly rewarding, but to know that kind of the cycle of the work is that you're never done. You got to keep going. It's a unique file from my perspective in that regard because there is so much to do. But that might be more challenging.
Aaron Pete:I know on council, when we have a win, I notice my team has a tough time absorbing that, soaking that in for themselves, and so I always try and say let's just take a couple of minutes and process what we've done here. We just got approved for BC housing. We're going to have new housing we haven't had in like 20 years. This is a big accomplishment. But everybody wants to kind of move on to what do we need to do next for A, b, c or D, and so I noticed that it was taking something a little bit too much for me personally in that role, and so I just needed to start to develop processes so we could celebrate those things. I'm happy to get back to work, I'm happy to do the job, but I just noticed that if I didn't do that for myself, I was going to burn out, because you need to be able to say I'm doing my very best. And so I'm just curious as to that personal experience with this file.
Gary Anandasangaree :Yeah, look, it's one of those things where I've always, you know, anything I've done, you know it's either 110% or nothing right, and that's always been my approach. But in this particular role, I realized that every day matters right, every day, you know when we you know, we sent three modern initial three modern treaties this summer, last week of June and last week of June and one in July and one thing I realized is that every single one of them, communities and leaders and lawyers and negotiators and councils and elders have been working on it for 30, 35, 40 years, like it's a lifetime right. I mean, at the end of this enormous journey, sometimes I think we were celebrating someone who was, you know, like, couldn't even come to the initial end, just because it took so long and it was not well. We've had issues where, you know, a gentleman passed away just before negotiatorsators agreement on it. So the the weight of history is is there every time. We do this right, and every day, even if we're signing off on agricultural benefit or addition to reserve, the time it took to get us there is so, so, so frustrating sometimes. Um, but we're there and and it's a moment where you know, yes, I want to, you know, relish it, and I want to say this is great, but I don't think we have time to just focus on that, because we're right away off to the next, next one and the next one and the next one.
Gary Anandasangaree :Um, because we do. We have made progress on a range of issues, um, and I would be remiss if I don't execute on them and be able to. You know, I'm trying to figure out my fall schedule and we have a number of major, major advances in Ontario and in other parts. I just need to make sure I get to each one of them to be able to initial them, because imagine if we're not able to do it in the mandate we have, because then they'll have to wait, you know, maybe several months able to initial them. Because imagine if we're not able to do it in the mandate we have, because then they'll have to wait, you know, maybe several months, maybe several years, maybe until, uh, you know, maybe a decade, and we don't want to do that.
Gary Anandasangaree :Um, and and and. So I think I'm inspired by it and I feel like I do take rest. I'm not a robot. I take rest, I take my time off, I spend time with family and I do take vacations and so on, but ultimately the focus of the work is so important it's like nothing else in government. There's no other parallel role in government that I think will have transformational impact in the long haul than this particular portfolio and the work that we're doing around reconciliation across the board.
Aaron Pete:Would you mind sharing I know this was a little bit of a time ago, but it's still very relevant the agreement you signed with the Mi'kmaq.
Gary Anandasangaree :As you know, the Mi'kmaq was an education sectoral agreement with the Mi'kmaq in Nova Scotia. It was basically a renewal of the previous agreement that the Mi'k the averages for Nova Scotia in terms of graduation rates, in terms of educational attainment and so on. So it's a in many ways it is a very inspiring, you know, 30-year journey where they've built an education system with outcomes that I think is desired by most, if not all that I have met. So signing that, I think, with the prime minister there, I think was very special. And at the core, I think, of the relationship is the failure of Canada and its education policies. It's the failure of colonial structures and policies to say, you know, we're going to take the Indiana, the child, we're going to remove the child into residential schools and then we're going to make sure that they don't speak the language, they have no connection to their community and culture, and we're going to take, you know, cut their hair, a range of things that happened where the child was actually, you know, devastated and and ultimately returned to a community where the community doesn't recognize the child and the child doesn't recognize the community.
Gary Anandasangaree :And at the core of self-determination, at the core of UNRRAP, it's about ensuring that Indigenous people have right and control over every aspect of their life, with education being a core aspect of of one's growth, one's well-being, one's progress, um, and and that that's why it was so, you know, so important for me when we signed that agreement, as someone who you know, I think more than any other area of of law, you know, education is rights of education is something I've fought for all my life and I think to be able to sign that agreement and renew that relationship was a 35-year renewal and to ensure that self-determination stays with the Mi'kmaq was extremely powerful.
Gary Anandasangaree :More powerful was to see the you know we were at a graduation right afterwards, the local high school, I think 11 out of the 12, like their high school graduation rates were, you know, phenomenal and to be able to spend time with the young people there. Just, you know, for much of the negativity we hear, those are the days, um why we do this work right, because we want to set um and and ensure that um the trajectory is turned and and we have a path that ensures um every single child that's born here, indigenous or non-Indigenous, is able to fully actualize their potential.
Aaron Pete:Beautiful. I've had the honor of interviewing Roy Henry Vickers, who is an artist, and you've recently signed draft treaties with one of his communities. Would you mind talking about the draft treaties with Kitsum, kalem and Kitsalis talking about?
Gary Anandasangaree :the draft treaties with Kitsim, keelam and Kitsilas. Yes, we were able to initial this in June, right after National Indigenous Peoples Day. It was a remarkable week in Terrace and it was very special and it's one of those things where, again, we're talking about people that have been working for 30, 40 years towards establishing a treaty and we were able to initiate and go to the next step of ratification and consultation. It was special for the communities. I mean, I couldn't underscore the incredible partnership that we were able to nurture. Minister Rankin and the province of BC were, you know, are incredible partners for us in this journey.
Gary Anandasangaree :In British Columbia, we haven't had a modern treaty completed in a generation, so as part of the BC3D process, it was also critically important to ensure that that worked. Is it perfect? No, is it going to solve every issue or any of the major issues? No, this is an important framework, I think, that will, over time, ensure that both communities have sub-determination over their affairs. We need to look at Tuasen or some of the communities in the lower mainland who have entered into modern treaties and we see the progress that they've made within a relatively short period of time. Tuasen is only 15 years, the Nishka they're much more advanced and a longer term treaty. But even then, we are just scratching the surface and the potential is enormous in the future, and I think that's what I'm excited about. The fact that the nations will have self-determination over their affairs is at the core of what I think our government wants to work on, and I think it's a core of UNDRIP. It's a core of the aspirations of many nations that I've been able to speak to and engage with.
Aaron Pete:Is there a piece of the treaty process that stands out to you? Right now we have a provincial election underway and John Rustad seems very focused on economic reconciliation. I'm just wondering within these treaties, is there a piece that stands out to you that's important, that differentiates it from historic treaties? How do you process the document itself?
Gary Anandasangaree :Look the number of treaties you know are from a very different era with a different set of objectives.
Gary Anandasangaree :The modern treaties are fully hashed out over, you know, several decades of work, and it ensures self-determination, it ensures land that goes back to the nation, it ensures establishment of a government and different structures within government Oftentimes it's incremental, there's also fish components to it and, ultimately, in order to have economic reconciliation, I believe treaties are a very important tool to achieve that.
Gary Anandasangaree :I think it's relatively easy to talk about economic reconciliation without talking about the underlying issues, and if we do not have self-determination over aspects of people's lives, many aspects-determination over, you know, aspects of people's lives, many aspects of people's lives, including taxation, then the latter is almost an artificial assertion that life will be better with economic compensation. I think, in order to understand what that really means, the tools need to be available ahead of time, and the modern treaties actually enable us to set up those tools. And I go back to the Tuasen as one of the examples of how they've been able to build and to be economically self-sufficient, with, you know, enormous aspirations that they have towards economic development. But all of that's happened because of the, the modern treaty they were able to enter into this is more of a personal philosophy question that I ask myself fairly regularly.
Aaron Pete:I see many nations and many Indigenous people demanding self-determination and the only piece that I just I want to hear a little bit more of from my counterparts, my colleagues, is the responsibility that comes with that self-determination.
Aaron Pete:That's just something I personally worry about as my own nation we look at wanting self-determination. I constantly stress that with self-determination we can no longer ask to shift the blame to municipalities, the provincial government, the federal government. With that idea of being able to have that self-determination, we need to own our own mistakes and not point at you, at your colleagues, for the problems that we're facing now. Certainly, caveat being, many Indigenous communities are in different places and some of them aren't asking to be free and make their own calls, but I do see that their balance needs to be struck where, if an Indigenous community is reaching that point where they're able to have the money they need to invest in their community, that they have to own the outcomes for their community, that they can't point it at you or the local provincial minister. They have to take that on themselves and it's a shift that I think needs to come with that. Do you have any reflections on that?
Gary Anandasangaree :I would say that you know, the vast majority of the interactions I've had, there's never been that, you know, shift of blame, I think. The modern treaties there's 27 of them right now across Canada. Each one of them are on a separate journey. You know, we are in the cusp of signing the first full justice agreement in the Yukon. This will be the first one in Canada with true drawdown rights for justice and it's been done incrementally.
Gary Anandasangaree :So if you look at the journey we've had and we can go back to 50 years of modern treaties, they have been incremental. They have oftentimes been very frustrating because of the length of time it's taken. But I think we get to a point where this is naturally the willingness, the ability, the strength and the capacity is there for communities to be self-governing nations. And I think there are sometimes misconceptions that we can do this overnight. We can't and I think there's realization that when we know, when we take the longer term view and frankly, a lot of the blame I think still falls on the federal government because some I do think. Ultimately, my perspective is that we have advanced treaties to a point where communities and nations are ready, willing, able and have the capacity to take it on and to flourish. And it's not perfect, but I think they will have their own uh journey. Each one of them will make mistakes, but but also they will correct their mistakes and and and they will be held accountable their their own people fascinating.
Aaron Pete:The way that we got connected was through your work with comox first nation and the treaty they're working on. Would you mind sharing some of the background on that agreement?
Gary Anandasangaree :Sure, it's very similar to the other two. Again, comac, I think it's about 35 years in the making. The initialing I think we did in July, the 22nd of last couple months ago. So you know, fish was a major component of it to ensure that there is, you know, traditional fishing rights are protected. Again, it was a very difficult journey went to the former chief's house to initial the final treaty because he was not well and we wanted to make sure that his life work was respected and recognized. But it was also great to see young people there who had so much hope and aspirations. In fact there's a family visiting from the Netherlands on the island and they just happened to be there. They said this is happening and we wanted to see what this was like. And I was talking to them and they were quite overwhelmed by the significance of the moment, I think, for the community. I can't speak for the community but I can tell you as someone who witnessed the third initialing, and the first one I signed was the first one we signed in Saskatchewan was the Whitecap Dakota last year, and I did it a few days after my appointment.
Gary Anandasangaree :Every single one of them is exceptionally meaningful and real and heartwarming because it is about getting out of the Indian Act. It is about saying that Canada no longer relies on a racist government legislation to to define a relationship. It is about saying that every person has agency and sovereignty and self-determination and, as a people, canada and the Comox, for example, are able to coexist as partners with our own set of responsibilities, but ultimately, the Comox people will be able to be the drivers with your destiny. And you know, I visited the Comox maybe six, seven months ago and I saw the potential they have. It's enormous and oftentimes it's tied down because of the challenges of the Indian Act and the journey to get there has not been easy and probably the most frustrating part of the treaties is the length of time. But I think we're in a better place.
Aaron Pete:And we want to continue to be able to do this for nations that are ready to move forward. You also introduced legislation to recognize the Haida Nation's inherent rights of governance and self-determination. I had a few journalists actually reach out and say they didn't feel like this story got a lot of coverage. Would you mind giving us some insight into this?
Gary Anandasangaree :Sure, there's also another story with the Haida that I would love to talk about. I was able to visit them. I was in Haida Gwaii this year in the summer, but last year S16 was introduced, essentially recognizing the Council of the Haida Nation as the government of the Haida people and ensuring that they represent their people and the establishment of the government. The Haida have asked that we have an incremental approach towards where they want to go, the first issue being recognition of the government. The second major thing they want to do is recognition of title. As you know, the province of British Columbia was able to bring forward legislation recognizing title. I was invited to the legislature First time I've sat through a legislation. I've never been elected to the provincial legislature, so the first time I was able to sit there, but for me it was important that I send a message that BC is not alone in this.
Gary Anandasangaree :We, you know, federal government.
Gary Anandasangaree :We want to move forward and I know when Minister Guilbault went, he spent several days in Haida Gwe.
Gary Anandasangaree :We're talking about lands that are federal controlling, including, you know, parks, canada, guahannes, as well as some land that relating to defense and transport, which could potentially, as part of the second phase of this could be transferred to the Haida people.
Gary Anandasangaree :At the backdrop of it, there is ongoing litigation that will continue to, I think, haunt both of us until we have a resolution. So, while we're moving forward, we also know that there is litigation that's been ongoing for decades about title and the nature of title, and it was first resolved with the Nishka. But we are here in Haida Gwai trying to resolve it before we go to trial, because I think it is such an incredible area, such a serene, spectacular history, and I was so moved, I think, by the connection people had to their land and what it represents, I think, think, for Canada, for North America, for the world, and we're in a we're in a moment where, you know, giving land back is very much part of of what we need to do. I'll be I think we're not as advanced there yet and I'm hoping over the next you know the course we're mandated we'll be able to advance some work towards returning the land.
Aaron Pete:This is just a question about relationships. You've spoken fairly highly of the work the BC government's doing currently. That's under BC NDP leadership and David Eby. Currently there's a provincial election. I know that's not federal but, as I mentioned, John Rustad, the leader of the BC Conservatives, has talked about repealing UNDRIP and you've spoken highly of this legislation. Do you have any recommendations, thoughts or reflections that you'd want to share with Mr Rustad as he looks at that decision?
Gary Anandasangaree :Look, I don't want to necessarily get involved in the BC election, but I can be very clear with respect to the federal objectives. Any government of Canada, any provincial government, that goes back on reconciliation every aspect of it right, whether it is on modern treaties, whether it's on, you know, on DRIP and BC DRIP is, you know, they're a couple of years ahead of us or on a range of other advances that we have made Any government that repeals or goes backward is taking Canada back. It is taking us back to a time where we're reinforcing systemic racism. I don't think that, you know, any of us want to live in a country where we have two classes of citizenship. I don't think we want to live in a country where we're not making every single effort to make all the mistakes that we have made and to owning up to the failures of successive governments. We can couch all of this and say economic reconciliation is going to be the panacea to this, and I would be the first to say economic reconciliation is important, but it cannot be at the expense of everything else and it cannot be an excuse to roll back fundamental gains that we've made.
Gary Anandasangaree :Over the last decade the federal side we've had a decade of what we call the lost decade, where there's no investments in housing. Every relationship we had with Indigenous people were based on the Financial Accountability Act and looking at, you know, every band council as someone who is fundamentally fraud and not fundamentally flawed and not transparent and accountable. And I think we need to have a starting point where we are nation to nation, we are in an advanced state of relationship where we trust each other and we have been able to build that trust and that 10 years has accumulated into many, many years of neglect on housing, on infrastructure, on schools, and, frankly, I think we have made enormous advances in the last nine years. The BC government is the only government to in fact invest in housing for Indigenous people, which is over, you know, over a billion dollars of housing, and Minister Rankin always reminds me of this, and I think it's a remarkable record. Now, is that enough? No, we need to sustain the work, we need to continue it. We need every government here on forth to have the vision of closing the gap until the gap is closed and then doubling down and ensuring that we have self-determination on every aspect of life. And I think for anyone seeking a leadership position in Canada who wants to lead a government. They need to think twice if they are for a second thinking about rolling back any of these rights and any of these advances, and I believe that Canadians, both Indigenous and non-Indigenous, are very committed towards making sure that we advance this work, work, um.
Gary Anandasangaree :I know it's a bit long answer, but my ultimate test is grade five students. I speak to in schools in scarborough. When I um first started going to these classes in 2016, when I started talking about business issues, they would have very little knowledge of what I'm talking about. Today, I go into a grade five class anywhere in my area, but over 20 schools. The first question I would be often asked about water, then it's about missing and murdered. Then it'll be about. You know, every child matters and I would spend an hour trying to answer and oftentimes defend what the government's done. I think we're in a different place today than we were a decade ago and I think Canadians expect a lot more of the environment and will not tolerate anyone going back.
Aaron Pete:Agreed. Just on the Financial Transparency Act, I'll give a little bit of a pushback because the only concern that I see I'm a fierce proponent of that act and the need for it to be implemented. I joined my council. We were three years behind on our audits. Our community had no trust in the council because there wasn't financial transparency. We were behind on some of our reporting to organizations like Indigenous Services Canada reporting to organizations like Indigenous Services Canada.
Aaron Pete:And my big concern and you might see this occasionally but is that often Indigenous people and First Nation communities are often voted in based on their last name or their family relations.
Aaron Pete:That's a problem. I believe in democracy, and democracy would have those people run based on a platform of how they're going to improve their nation, not based purely on their family dynamics. And so those people get put in and if they have a big enough family, they can run the community and then they may have good relations with you but bad relations on their financial responsibilities. And then they might be a good partner between, say, me and you, but then they're not accountable to their community and ultimately, I think that the financial transparency act protects the community members from um mishandlings of things, and I think that's really important because if if we as a first nation community are going to be a good partner, you need to know that we're coming to the table with the full support of our nation. But if we don't have up-to-date financials, people may have voted us in based on a misunderstanding of where the finances actually are.
Gary Anandasangaree :Look, I don't you know for a second say that financial transparency or accountability is not important. I do think it's important, but my sense is that the previous act, or the act that still is on paper, focuses exponentially on that piece at the expense of the other work that needs to be done. I think when we are creating a relationship, when we're trying to build trust, we need to come with the understanding that your community is capable of governing itself, you know, is able to elect its leaders, is able to hold you accountable and, trust me, I have seen many an election. You know, I would meet a chief in the next week. I got a text saying sorry, we were voted out, and I've seen, I see it all the time and I think that's the concern, right, and absolutely I think it's important that.
Gary Anandasangaree :I believe that. You know, notwithstanding our preoccupation with the Financial Transparency Act, we have a great deal of adherence to best practices. Best practices we have. A vast majority of the communities that were on a difficult financial journey have turned themselves around and that's because we've been able to work as partners to get them through difficult times. And that's my point here it's to make sure that when we build a relationship. It's not based on distrust, it's based on trust.
Aaron Pete:Fair enough. The other conversation is around the caps on Indian residential school searches and the funding for that. Now I just want to be transparent. I've had multiple conversations with people, various on the political spectrum. I've spoken to Chief Willie Sellers from Williams Lake First Nation. We talked about his community and the actual searches that may go on. In political spectrum, I've spoken to Chief Willie Sellers from Williams Lake First Nation. We talked about his community and the actual searches that may go on in his community. Michael Moses, who's running for the BCNDP. But I've also spoken to individuals like Candace Malcolm from True North Media about her perspective and the book that her organization, True North, released, saying that perhaps there aren't these unmarked graves, that the CBC story that was initially reported has some problems with it, one of which is they find abnormalities. There's not bones that have been discovered. There's these abnormalities that may be bodies and I'm wondering how you process this story. And then how do you decide You've removed the caps on that search? How did you come to that decision?
Gary Anandasangaree :So I think we need to go back to the first findings in Kamloops and when we had the prime minister and my previous portfolio holder, mark Miller. From day one, our commitment was to support the journey that every community wants to undertake. And that journey could be it's at their own pace, it's at their own methodology. It is to you know, it's an incremental process sometimes, and I think from the outset we've made funding available for communities to undertake communities, and sometimes it's a group of communities, sometimes it's organizations, to undertake that work, and that work is critical and the absolute commitment that we have as a government is to be with the community each and every step of the way. This, you know, this budget cycle. We had to make a very difficult decision because there was exceptionally high demand for resources. So we were, you know, we, I think mistakenly put a cap of $500,000 per community, which we eventually changed and there's no longer a cap, and I think that's caused some anxiety amongst many survivors. I've been able to meet with many of them along the way and I fully recognize that that was a mistake and we are trying to ensure broader work is done by more communities. We also did not appreciate the depth of work that was already being done. So here we are today, I think, as we lead up to September 30th, where our commitment is renewed. Our commitment is absolutely clear we need more resources and I will be seeking more resources towards long-term support for communities and I do believe that many communities that have done advanced work so some have done work, they're ready to exhume, they're ready to find their loved ones and maybe even go to the next step of DNA testing are in a very different phase than someone who's just starting to look for anomalies or starting to scope out the area that they're going to do the search. They're in two different parts and areas of the journey.
Gary Anandasangaree :But it's the backdrop of this, this denialism, that is very troubling, because you know I was at Williams Lake. I was at. You know we did a. I was at Williams Lake last year around this time I met with Charlene Galou, who is very involved with the work of St Joseph's Resurrection former St Joseph's Resurrection schools. I walked the ground and you know this was about three, four in the afternoon by the time I finished and I had so many other things to do that day. I just went to the hotel and I had to shut down and I have not felt like that in any other day in this role. And I had to shut down because the emotion was so overwhelming and the impact that just even walking and understanding and understanding the stories just just crushed me right.
Gary Anandasangaree :And for anyone to suggest that you know, we can't accept residential school that that's took place, that young people didn't go home, families didn't have their kids back, I think it's absolute nonsense and it is the type of hatred in my opinion that warrants criminal review. And almost when we talk about Holocaust denial or denialism of any major event, I think genocide. I think this is at that point where it should be part of Canadian criminal law to be able to talk about those who deny that this happened. The work, I think, that's being undertaken by the community is a verification process to see you know if there are bodies that can be found or that can be exhumed, and it can be, you know, tested and every single one of those steps takes buy-in from the community, takes commitment, it takes, frankly, the the the understanding of you know what they're going to be able to to live with when they do that search, and everyone will have different decision points and everyone will not have the same outcome, but ultimately, everyone deserves to undertake this process if and when they're ready.
Aaron Pete:Minister, I guess I will just push back a bit on the idea of legislating this into law. I spoke to Candice Malcolm. Her and I disagree on a great many things, but we work that through through conversations and dialogue and she's very skeptical on whether or not this money is going to be well spent. She's very confident that this is a gigantic waste of money from her perspective. I disagree with her. I lean much more towards let's do the research, let's give communities the opportunity to understand their history and make sure they verify these things. But I spoke with Michael Moses, who is very sympathetic to this cause as well, and he agrees this may have been a moral panic that we may do all of this research and come back with a few people, that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission did cover a lot of this work. And so there is this genuine pushback that I think is coming from a very real place of they were told that there was these 215 children lost. Then the number just kept going up and not a lot of that is verified and so people panicked.
Aaron Pete:I remember people reaching out to me how do I think about this? What do I do? How do I reconcile? How do I carry this weight on my shoulders. We were a part of a genocide. We killed thousands and thousands of babies and we don't know whether or not that's even true. And so when you see this pushback, when you see people going whoa, whoa, whoa, we might have been sold a bill of goods. When you see grave error and the book like I read that book, I said, okay, like we have to hear these people out because they may be on the other side of the political spectrum than me. But the only way to reduce these tensions is to have open dialogue.
Aaron Pete:My grandmother attended St Mary's Indian Residential School. As a consequence of the trauma she experienced there, she drank most of her life. She gave my mother fetal alcohol syndrome as a consequence of that. And then I am lucky, being raised by a single mother, that I got given certain opportunities in life to rise out of that life. But I want the opportunity to sit those people down, look them in the face and break these conversations down.
Aaron Pete:And if I threaten the legal system against these people, it just emboldens them that one side has the political power and one side doesn't, and I think there does need to be genuine conversations about that. So I just wanted to kind of share my feedback on that. The last piece is just around the infrastructure gap and how we think about that issue. I've been very impressed personally working with representatives from Indigenous Canada. We're upgrading our water systems, we are looking at new subdivision feasibility studies, we are investing in making sure we have a clean sewage system that's going to allow us to continue to build new housing, and so I'm just wondering if you can reflect on the work taking place. I think the common one your government often hears is what are you doing about clean water for Indigenous communities?
Gary Anandasangaree :Yeah, and look, clean water is probably. That gives you, I think, just under 30 boil water advisories where we're very close to completion. So I feel like that's a gap that we're going to close over the next several months, if not a year or two. I think the broader concern is on issues of housing and infrastructure, schools. What have you and we have invested unprecedented amounts of money into these.
Gary Anandasangaree :You know different gaps, but the challenge is, for example, housing. Northern housing is a major challenge. So when we look at places like northern northwest territories, we know that you want to get goods into the areas to build the houses. The barges are not able to go through because of climate change, because there's very dry conditions. Similarly, we have other areas where we've had a labor shortage and we've had supply chain issues.
Gary Anandasangaree :I do believe that our investments through, for example, the urban world and northern housing, with $4 billion that will be going out relatively soon that will have an impact in communities and I do think we need to have a sustained effort towards closing the gap. We're not going to be able to do it in a year or two. It's going to take time, but it's also going to take consistent investment. So it cannot be, as I said earlier, it cannot be that we invest for 10 years and the next 10 years we don't invest. This needs to be a continuous commitment by successive governments to be able to close this gap Ultimately.
Gary Anandasangaree :We know the housing conditions are horrible in some communities. That results in difficulties for learning, sometimes situations where, if you want more people living in the house, your ability to learn, your ability to have privacy a range of issues, I think kick in and that oftentimes leads to other social issues. So we do know that investing in housing is a critical component of the work that we need to do and I believe we made sustained efforts. Is it at where we want to be? No, I think we need to be known and we need to continuously work towards closing the gap.
Gary Anandasangaree :And today, just today, we announced $24 million towards 100 beds in Southern Ontario, towards transitional housing for women who are going through difficult situations situations, for example, women and men, by the way. So, for example, thunder Woman Healing Lodge is a place in Toronto where we're creating beds through the National Indigenous Housing Program with the requisite wraparound supports for them, for people who are getting out of correctional facilities. So those are important steps and I think there's 72 or 73 different projects that are supported through NICI, and what we're expecting is that more and more projects will flow through not just through by the 2022, but 23 and 24 as well, with additional infrastructure dollars that are going to go towards communities. So it's a work that we need to continue and sustain as we move forward on this relationship and nurturing and building the relationship.
Aaron Pete:Yes, I am very impressed. When I came on, of course, I've heard how difficult it can be to improve housing. I was given that portfolio in 2022. We had 89 homes. A lot of them needed significant repairs. A lot of them I wouldn't feel comfortable sleeping in for a night, and since I've joined joined we've repaired 35 of those 89 homes and those are significant investments that are allowing people to have lower cost of living because their BC hydro charges or their electrical charges are lower. They have better air quality because they're able to seal their house when there's larger amounts of smoke.
Aaron Pete:The only comment and it sounds like you've already heard this from our provincial counterparts is that investment in federal housing is something we start to see in the lack. We're lucky here in BC because we have BC housing, but if we have a conservative government, we will no longer have that support, they will no longer prioritize that and we will be completely reliant on your ministry and, of course, patty Hajju's ministry in order to get that support. Do you foresee that being an investment that we're going to see in the near future, because we have started to see that start to dip in recent years?
Gary Anandasangaree :Well, look, housing from a federal perspective, is critical, and we are investing almost $60 billion towards the National Housing Program. A lot of it is earmarked specifically for Indigenous people. We also have a $4 billion carve-out for urban, rural and northern, and those are focused on Indigenous communities. We have an additional billion dollars towards infrastructure that's flowing out of by 2024. So I think there's enough uh out there that I think, um will people will start seeing the change, um and and ultimately so building momentum and and sustaining the funding as we go forward. Um, I do believe, and especially in urban areas, there is a lack of supports that are available, lack of housing, housing, and there are a number of incredible organizations that are closing the gap, but they're doing it because the fellow government is there as a partner for them, and that's exactly what we did this afternoon.
Aaron Pete:Can you tell people how they can keep up with your work and the important impact you're having in the agreements you're signing?
Gary Anandasangaree :Well, our social media is probably our best forum. So, Gary, underscore SRP on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook, and we're always you know, I am visiting many communities. One of the things I've started to do, Aaron, is to meet young people. So last time in New York at the UN Criminal Forum on Indigenous Affairs, we had a meeting with about 70 youth from across Canada who were attending as delegates, and it was truly inspirational. So I would love to continue engagements with young people across Indigenous people across Canada.
Gary Anandasangaree :I do think there's a voice that's oftentimes missing or not heard enough. But you know, like the work doesn't end, and I think that we're in a critical moment, juncture in our history, in our shared history, where I think we can move the dial and we're moving in the right direction. And I think they're all saying you know, if we are paddling the canoe in the same direction, you know we will get to the destination faster, and that's how I feel that we are today. We still have a long way to go, but I think we're on that path and we're on that together.
Aaron Pete:Minister, it's been an honour to share the time with you. I really appreciate you sharing your insights on this work and for taking the time.
Gary Anandasangaree :Thank you, arjen. Thank you.
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