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BIGGER THAN ME PODCAST
176. Mo Amir: What Role Does Media Play in a Democracy?
Aaron Pete sits down with Mo Amir, host of This is VanColour, to discuss bias in news, trust in media, political polarization and the craft of conducting meaningful interviews. They explore the role of media in fostering an informed electorate, the challenges of balanced reporting, and the importance of an informed democracy.
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host, aaron Peet.
Aaron Pete:Legacy media or independent media? Is there one that you trust more as hosts? The currency that we deal in is trust. I'm speaking with someone today who has had his foot in both camps. We explore these discussions and so much more. My guest today is Mo Amir Mo. It is an honor to have you on. I have been following your work. You helped me prepare for some of the interviews with the BC leaders. Would you mind first introducing yourself, aaron.
Mo Amir:well, first of all, cut that out. The honor is all mine. Thank you for having me. It's a privilege anytime someone wants to talk to me in this type of format, so I'm really excited. My name is Mo Amir. I am the creator and host of this Is Van Color, which started as a podcast very similar to what you have here and now is a TV talk show in its fourth season on check Thursday nights at 9 pm, thursday nights at 9 pm, and on top of that, I'm also a political commentator. I like to call myself the most bleeped political commentator in British Columbia, because I think I hold that title and until someone else challenges it, I'm going to keep saying that. So what are the rules here? Do you bleep? Do you just hit? We do not. Anything goes. Anything goes. Oh, we're going to get crazy, aaron.
Aaron Pete:Let's do it. Can you take us back to the beginning? When did you start to get interested in broadcasting communications?
Mo Amir:and and sharing your voice. Yeah, I mean, I kind of stumbled into it. I've always been like a bit of a news buff and just keeping in on top of current events. I have a master's degree in political science and a business degree, a bachelor bachelor's in business as well, both from SFU, and so just a wide array of different interests, and it's kind of a silly story, but what happened was I was a big yogi you can't tell from my current physique but back in the day I was going twice a day. I was going in the morning and in the evening and I sustained an injury. It wasn't too bad, but it took me. It would require about two months to recover.
Mo Amir:And all of a sudden, I had all this free time, and then I just came up with this idea of like, hey, what would it take to start a podcast? And this was back in 2018. And I looked for studio space and just I know nothing about the technical side, so I just needed help on that and found a studio that was willing to help me out. And then it was kind of in the midst of the 2018 municipal elections in BC, so I focused in on Vancouver. I do live in North Vancouver, though, and just started from there.
Mo Amir:And then, you know, as you've probably experienced as well, you think it's going to be one thing, and then it slowly evolves into something else, and so, once that started kind of gaining a little traction, I was doing commentary for cknw, then eventually started doing commentary for cbc, which I still do on a weekly basis and for some special events as well, and then, in 2021, czech News it's a broadcaster here in British Columbia that only broadcast to British Columbia just said hey, do you want to make this into a TV show? I knew nothing about TV and I was like, yeah, let's do it, and that's its own learning curve, right of adjusting into a new format. So that's kind of my journey in a nutshell, I guess.
Aaron Pete:What were the standout moments, like the milestones that you hit for yourself, by your own standard, during that period of having the podcast start to?
Mo Amir:take off. Yeah, there were a few. I mean, the first is when you get asked by like Linda Steele was at CKNW at the time. She had the Linda Steele shows, the afternoon drive, basically and I had interviewed her. It was a lot of fun and you know, she handed me her business card and said, hey, you should come do some commentary for us.
Mo Amir:And so being on like quote unquote legacy media or mainstream media was definitely a big breakthrough and I'll always feel indebted to Linda for, you know, seeing something in me and giving me that opportunity. And then you know when the other thing was for me, it was when you, the Vancouver Sun or other outlets would start picking up things that were happening on my podcast or conversations that were happening. So then I realized like, oh, people are listening you know it's not, it's not amazing listenership at the time but like, clearly there's a few people that do listen to the show. Uh, and so those were kind of things that made me realize like, okay, let's keep going. I never had a a long-term plan of what this was supposed to be. Uh, I, I, even today I maintain that, having stumbled into this space, I'm here for a good time, not a long time and I've just kept myself open to whatever opportunities may arise and just stayed grounded in terms of focusing on what I'm passionate about as opposed to, you know, trying to meet a market.
Aaron Pete:What are you passionate about?
Mo Amir:Oh, just things that are local. I mean particularly local politics, obviously, or provincial politics, I would say. But more than that, I think different perspectives, different walks of life, things that maybe I've not been exposed to, I think that very much interests me and I'm more than willing. As much of a commentator as I am or some people might call me an ideologue I'm more than willing to have my mind changed or listen to different perspectives, and I like chatting with people who come at an issue very differently. And so you know, despite some of the toxicity you might see online of me being this or that like, I have good relationships with people who have very different opinions and I do see value in exposing yourself to that. How has your view of being a host evolved since the beginning to now? Yeah, great question. I mean I think I don't know who inspired you necessarily to start this. I think I've heard you say Jordan Peterson.
Aaron Pete:And Joe.
Mo Amir:Rogan yeah, so I'm also of the Joe Rogan cult. I don't listen to him that much anymore. I did listen to the Trump podcast, though, because everyone had to, but it was Rogan right. And you start thinking like, oh what if we just do these conversations or whatever? And that's a lot harder to do.
Mo Amir:You do have to come in as an interviewer and you do have to at least be very conscious of what you want to get out of that the person that you're interviewing right. And so I'm not saying it's an agenda, I'm saying it's like a game plan of like I want to talk to Aaron and I want to get his point of view on independent media right and the challenges of that. That's not an agenda, that's a game plan, that's a strategy. That's what is required in your prep and your research right. So that starts really—you really start honing in on that and sharpening your skills. And now that it's the TV format and you're working in like seven to 10 minute segments, that becomes even more acute, because you don't have a ton of time to waste and we don't edit right it's still live to tape. So you want to make sure that you ask a question in a way that will get to the meat of the issue for the viewer.
Aaron Pete:Yeah, and then how do you go about preparing those questions and has your perspective, perhaps when you started, evolved when you have to also consider challenging guests and making sure that you do get to some sort of answer?
Mo Amir:Yeah, good question. So what was the first part of that question?
Aaron Pete:The preparation that's involved as well, like how do you tie that in to make sure that you deliver on not only going through that game plan, but making sure that you hold them accountable to an answer?
Mo Amir:the preparation depends on a guest right. So if it is a politician, it's a much different preparation, because then you're kind of looking at things that they've said in the past and you're looking for other other issues of of what have they said about an issue. Can I find contradictions in terms of holding them accountable? Hey, you said A this day and then you said B the other day. Which one is it? And so politicians, I think, require a different amount of prep.
Aaron Pete:Did you learn that or were you taught that? No, did you know that? No, I think you just learn it over time.
Mo Amir:And again, I'm not saying I'm some expert. You continue to develop skills. Again, I've only been doing this now for six years, so it's still relatively new. So politicians require a different amount of prep, because you're looking at what they've said and then you're also looking at the issue as well. When it comes to just like, let's just say it's a general expert or someone who's speaking from life experience or a journalist, then you're looking at just the issue, right, because it doesn't make sense to, let's say, there's a reporter on health care in this province. I'm not going to look at every single thing they've ever said, because they have a much different role and you can hold them accountable in terms of trying to make sense of something, but it's not the same type of accountability that you would hold a politician to.
Mo Amir:So it does depend on the guest and we also do a lot of fun and light segments. So when I know that it's going to be very light and it's supposed to be more on the entertainment side, then you're just thinking about OK, how do we take subject A and make it fun? How do we make it engaging? I mean, we just did a segment on the show about ketchup potato chips and I love that challenge because it's like, okay, we got six or seven minutes. How do we make this like pop pop, pop pop pop, where we're not losing the audience on just talking about how we like ketchup potato chips? Right?
Aaron Pete:Interesting.
Mo Amir:I like that Can we explore specifically how you prepared for the provincial leaders' discussions, what was on your mind when you were preparing for them and what did you view your role in June and part of that prep. I mean, this is where the challenge becomes. It's like you know that they're going to be interviewed so many times over and over again. So how do you create questions that hopefully have a little bit of shelf life from June onto the election? How do you create questions that are just not the same, that everyone else is asking? And then how do you maybe look at your previous interviews with them and hold them accountable to things they maybe have said in the past? Right, and so it's an interesting challenge and it is difficult because these guys are going to get asked, and Sonny First Snow as well. They're going to get asked the same thing over and over again.
Mo Amir:So where's my unique angle? Where am I finding it from? How am I framing it in a way that might be slightly different? And that becomes the challenge. So I know I'm not being super specific, but this was back in June so I can't go through the whole process, but the overall philosophy was that, knowing that we had an election later in the year, Was there a guest, one of the leaders, that you were the most nervous to interview or that felt like there was the biggest weight to interview?
Mo Amir:Well, not in this cycle, but I'll tell you, I was like the first major critic of Kevin Falcon and I just I was like this is not the guy and I don't know. Like I don't think he represents the type of opposition we even need. And it wasn't an ideological thing, it was just I just felt that he was out of touch and so I had been very critical of him, and then this would have been in 2022, having him on the show. Then you're like oh man, I've talked so much shit about you and we have to have this conversation. And I think he was nervous too, right. But it was a good conversation and I interviewed him, I want to say three times twice on his own, and then one actually him and Sonia together.
Mo Amir:I had them on the show and it was all good, right. That was just kind of nervous because I didn't know what the energy was going to be like and, as you probably know, the energy of a conversation is very interesting. If you get someone who comes in very stoic and maybe even with a bit of an edge, you end up adopting that. But if you get someone who's coming in kind of loose and cool, then you kind of adopt that as well, and so it's a bit of a dance right, and I think we both came in with somewhat nervous energy, uh, but it ended up being being all right, yeah I was the most nervous to interview john rustad.
Aaron Pete:Why? Because I felt like there was a caricature of who he was. When you read that he's a climate denier, that he's he's a denialist of all these issues, that he's not a fair player in the game, that he's not to be taken seriously, like I went in reading all of these articles that were very critical of who he was and what he stood for.
Mo Amir:You were reading too many Mo Amir articles was your problem.
Aaron Pete:And then knowing that, like I, could be going in to an interview where he doesn't speak that way, he doesn't come across that way, Like one of my biggest learning lessons was the kathy newman jordan peterson interview okay, yeah, yeah, is that the infamous one where he was getting really snappy? Yes, but where she was saying so what you mean is so what you mean is right.
Aaron Pete:She had a vision of who he was yeah, you can't do that and he went in or she went in with that vision and then the interview just showed her assumptions kind of through that interview, and I didn't want to repeat that with John Rustad. So I tried my best to take in that information, while knowing that this is a human being, this is, this is a flawed person just like everybody else, and so trying to leave that door open. But I was the most nervous because I didn't know if, if he was just all of these things and it was just going to be that simple, or if he was going to be something different. And then when he starts going like no, I believe in climate change, but like I don't believe it's A, b or C, like it's just it was more nuanced than what I had anticipated.
Mo Amir:So one thing I've maintained consistently both on my show and on CBC when I do commentary John Rustad is a very pleasant man, Like he's actually, he's kind of soft-spoken. He is very different than a lot of different politicians, where it does feel like he's listening to you. And so, as much as I agree with, as much as I disagree with a lot of his policies and some of the things that he espouses, I've always enjoyed chatting with him and I think you know, going back to the Kathy Newman, Jordan Peterson thing, that's what I mean in terms of differentiating a game plan versus an agenda. An agenda is I'm going to pwn, I'm going to dunk on this guy or whatever, whereas a game plan is I'm going to try to reconcile some contradiction that I see, or I'm going to try to get a straight answer on this one question. But you do see it, where interviewers clearly go in looking for a slam dunk on someone and I just think that that's the wrong approach to any interview.
Aaron Pete:When did you learn that?
Mo Amir:When did I learn that? I don't know if there was a particular moment, but I don't think it's actually. I don't think it's ever been my style to have an antagonistic interview right. So even from the start, as cringe as maybe some of those interviews were, they were never directly antagonistic.
Aaron Pete:Do you think that's because you were going into it in good faith of like building your own? That's what I think my prediction would be. The core is that we didn't come through this traditional system where you were given opportunities to perhaps interview these people. So you felt an authority.
Mo Amir:Yeah, you're trying to make a name for yourself.
Aaron Pete:Exactly, we went in with humility through this process. Yeah, maybe.
Mo Amir:I mean, part of it's just my natural predisposition, and I think that it's funny because I'll meet particularly conservatives and I'm saying small C conservatives I'm going to make necessarily the same jokes to their face. Right, we have to understand that there is, especially when you're on television and you're doing a talk show, there's an entertainment aspect to it, but at the same time, when you're face to face to someone, you have to give them grace because you want, like for me, the worst possible thing you can have in an interview is someone who either doesn't know the answers and you're like okay, well, why are you here? And I told you, like I always give discussion topics ahead of time. This is what we're going to talk about, because I want them to be prepared. It has to be informative as much as it is entertainment. On one side, you want people to gain some information out of it as well.
Mo Amir:Right, it's not just like I watched a show and Mo destroyed this guy in a conversation. It's like that sucks to me. I don't like Do you ever watch, uh, pierce morgan? Yes, I was a, I was originally a fan, right, and I and I just I became something turned off by it because it's it's now like four people in a box just yelling at each other for sure, and I'm like what value do I, do I get out of this? And they're talking about like really heavy issues, whether it's global conflict or whatever else, and I just, you know, it's turning me off, uh, and so just not, that's just not my style, I guess. Yeah, sorry, I feel like I'm rambling here and there, but no dragon and piers morgan the.
Aaron Pete:I guess the. The link that this brings us back to, though, is I do feel like there is this separation between traditional media and the willingness to kind of develop your own themes and your own approach and and your your own vision for how the conversation is going to go, and I think you've done a really, really good job. Thank you of creating this, this really good space for conversations like watching yours. I watched your interviews to prepare, and there was just nothing else really like it. When you're watching these four minute segments of like, just question answer, question answer, and the interviewer isn't able to show their personality or their quirks or or who they are, and I think that's that's something that kind of revives in your show, and I'm just curious was that a conversation you had to have with check? Was that just something that you were able to bring with you? Is that what they were looking?
Mo Amir:no, I think they understood the vibe and that's what they wanted. And you know, again, in being a relative outsider into the business, that's the space that I was trying to carve for myself. You know, I respect, you know, everyone in the press gallery and all the journalists that we have in this province, but for me it's like OK, well, how do I carve out a unique space for myself and a lot of people have, you know, you think about Bob Crownbower and Vancouver's Awesome, or you think about the guys at the Daily Hive, like they were kind of doing the same thing of like, ok, here's how a lot of media looks like. How do we make it slightly different and how do we make it work for a general audience? And I think a lot of there was a lot of conscious thought as the podcast and television show evolved into how do we make this slightly different? And so that's the space that I continue to carve out for myself and it's nice that it is resonating with people, that I continue to carve out for myself and it's nice that it is resonating with people.
Mo Amir:You know, again, here for a good time, not a long time, but you know why would I try to, and maybe this is something that you think about as well is like why would you try to imitate someone who's already doing that thing right? Don't you want to carve something that's a little more unique and maybe harder to imitate? And I'm not saying one is better, one is worse. It's just we all develop our own styles, and especially when you come outside of the system, there is some appeal to that right.
Aaron Pete:I think trust is the big thing, that authenticity kind of creates the pathway in for people and that's at least what I've seen is like the overwhelming feedback on all three interviews was that like I didn't get in the way of them answering the questions, I just let them go and like I understand from like I'm not a journalist, so I understand from their perspective there's parts where you want to push back or disagree more, but I do feel like so much of it, like if you're biased against or if your political leanings are already against them, then you're going to find that commentary on how they're perhaps wrong or incorrect.
Aaron Pete:My role was just to more humanize these individuals who are putting themselves forward for a position. I don't know if you feel the same same way, but it's still like I serve on council for my first nation community and the responsibility of trying to make sure 650 members are taken care of is like I lost a patch of my hair as a consequence of the stress I felt. I don't understand how you do that for a whole province. Yeah, and like that was really fascinating to me in the preparation was like how do we show that these people are trying to develop a vision with, with a bunch of people from their like political leanings that they also probably don't agree with, in a way that will benefit everybody. And that's a heavy job to apply for, like who are you and why are you applying for that?
Mo Amir:Yeah, and that actually is one of the biggest challenges is when do you step in to push back? And that's something that I continue to grapple with and I hope I get it right more times than not, but I'm sure I get it wrong as well. It's like when do you intervene and stop someone? And you're right, like it shouldn't necessarily be a personal pushback, and I try to do that with you, know, with EB and with Sonia, for Snow as well, and uh, and for me it's again, I try to work on a framework of logic, right, like using their own words or actions against them. Okay, you're saying that we're pointed in the right direction, but all these metrics are saying the opposite. Um, you know so.
Mo Amir:So that becomes the challenge of when do you push back? And I think if you're pushing back from a, from a place of, like I said before, just trying to get a dunk on someone, it's probably not a good idea. But if you're pushing back of like, uh, the interview, the, the subject, who's being interviewed, you're not making sense. Explain this to me. That, I think, is a much better place, right, so it can still be good faith. But, yeah, I think that's always the challenge, and it's especially a challenge when you're working in these, in these smaller segments. Right, we have a longer chat than you can always revisit something 100%, but when you're in a smaller you know eight minutes or whatever it is then it's like, okay, you really have to be on the ball.
Aaron Pete:An overwhelming response that I've heard from the leader of the Federal Conservative Party is that a majority of our media leans towards the left, and I would personally think that there's just more good faith attributed to individuals who lean, who are leaders of whether it's the NDP or the Liberal government, that there's just more deference given to them than Conservative individuals. What would you say to that? Than conservative individuals? What?
Mo Amir:would you say to that? I like what John Rustad said on your podcast about this, where he, you know, he himself also said that he felt that there was a media bias, but he felt that he was treated fairly. And so there can be two different things, and this is the strange balance that I try to reach is, on one hand, I'm a commentator who has certain beliefs I like to think I'm centrist but left on very specific files but then I'm also an interviewer who is supposed to be fair. I don't like the word objective, I like the word fair. This idea of objectivity being completely neutral, I think, is a bit of a myth. It's so hard to separate yourself from your own beliefs in that type of work.
Mo Amir:Um, but in terms of like a media bias, I mean, I guess, I guess there's probably, I guess, a lot of people that are in media lean left, but at the same time, then, a lot of people on online media lean right. I've noticed that. Yeah, so it's like are we talking about equity now, like ideological equity? It kind of seems like a fool's errand. I do think that if someone is being held back in an organization because of their ideological leanings, then that's a problem. I'd be the first one to say that I don't know if that's necessarily happening, but why do people who lean left gravitate towards mainstream or legacy media, and why do people who are further right? Why do they go to independent media? I don't know, that's a sociological question. I don't think I can necessarily square myself.
Aaron Pete:I don't know, that's a sociological question. I don't think I can necessarily square myself Well, I would predict someone would argue that a lot of government-funded media leans left and a lot of independent media can't get some—like. Candace Malcolm talked about how she couldn't get True North Media approved in Ontario to cover their provincial election as a consequence of not getting support from the other problem.
Mo Amir:The other problem with that, though, is that you know when you are working for a big station, you you are accountable on so many different levels like you cannot. There's certain language that you have to use, and I'm not saying that it's mandated police language. It's just like you can't call someone a liar, right, but you see people who Internet shows, and they might be on the right or left. They call people liars all the time, and it's like dude, that's defamation. Like you could get sued for calling someone a liar. That is like one of the no-no words that you're not allowed to call someone, and so there's just almost a greater rigor, I would say, when you are working with a legacy media organization that does have certain standards and has to abide by those things, versus the wild west of the internet and we see that right. Like I'm not going to call out any specific outlet, but like, sometimes, online media that is working quote unquote independently just gets things wrong.
Mo Amir:I saw a piece in one of these right-leaning places about Deep Cove in North Vancouver is turning into a 15-minute city, and I think the article's still up, and it's like I grew up in that neighborhood and I went there, and it's like it's not a 15-minute city. They're literally just trying to expand a walking promenade. They're not even expanding transit right. So it's like there's these different standards that I think media have to abide by, or I should say traditional media has to abide by. That maybe makes it seem that way.
Mo Amir:You could also argue that academia leans left, right and most journalists trained journalists will come out of some sort of academic background, so maybe that has something to do with it. I'm sure it's a multifactored reason of why we see that, but I don't deny that reality, that there's also probably an urban-rural divide. The more urban you are, the more likely you are to lean left, especially in this province. So that's probably a part of it. Lean left, especially in this province. So that's probably a part of it. But yeah, I don't deny the fact that, like a lot of journalists are like center, center left, some do lean right, for sure, but on social stuff very much, you know, center, center left.
Aaron Pete:That's actually one of the other questions I wanted to ask about. The election is that you have an overwhelming amount of the land in BC appears to be blue conservative, but these small cities are orange for the NDP, and I just wonder what that does from your perspective as a province when we have such a significant divide between how rural communities see things versus how urban folks see things.
Mo Amir:rural communities see things versus how urban folks see things. Yeah, I mean, it is very representative of political polarization and division in our province. Even, you know, you look at, the BCNDP did very well in most of the suburbs, except for Richmond and I'm talking about the lower mainland, of course except for Richmond and Surrey, Right. And so what's happening there? Well, a lot of discontentment with the government. Also, a lot of, you know, immigrant communities that may have more social conservative leanings, kind of big challenges of like how do we see what British Columbia should be and what services the government should be providing and where it should be intervening or not.
Mo Amir:And I think it's, you know it's very polarized. Again, I'm pushing 40, so I can't say for the entire history of British Columbia, but it's just never felt this divided on so many different issues and some things that some people will see as completely unacceptable and some things that some people will go. Yeah, it's not that great, but OK, I'll tolerate it. Right, and I mean things like the quality of candidates that do get run and that was an issue for the BC conservatives I think that's a fair assessment is that they ran some candidates that other parties would not have ran.
Aaron Pete:Can you tell us about your political commentary? What are your reflections on the election?
Mo Amir:Worst election ever. It was like no, it was, and people get mad about that, but it's like you know, it was interesting, the politics of it was fascinating, but I think when we think of the good of the province, it wasn't that interesting and I don't think it was a net good, lackluster kind of vision if you can even call it that for the province. There was nothing there about economic development. There was nothing there that was really inspiring us about you know, what does the next decade look like, or what should it look like, which I think was really missing. There was a great, I think, missed opportunity to say Surrey is going to be, you know, the next big metropolis. Let's put some, you know, let's invest tourist dollars there, let's invest other infrastructure that is sorely needed in that region. And then, on the other hand and I want to be charitable to the BC Conservatives because obviously they were riding this wave of anger that a lot of people had and disappointment, and you see that in Surrey, where you know they don't have enough hospitals, they don't have enough schools, they don't have the same type of transit setup I know they're building out some more, but like it's just an area that feels neglected and so they're riding it.
Mo Amir:But then at the same time a lot of these ideas felt half baked Right. They'd had great slogans oh, we'll reduce the wait times, oh, we'll do this, but then the route, the route of getting there, was not always clear. And then on top of that you just had candidates that I don't think should have should have been there. And you had a leader. And let's be honest about John Rustad. Like again, very pleasant man, respect him as a human being, but it's like he said some pretty out there things right, and people got mad at me because on CBC on election night I said he pandered to conspiracy theorists. He absolutely did. He was talking about Nuremberg 2.0. He was talking about forcing kids to eat the bugs. It's just hard to grasp how that is a serious contender to be the leader of the province. And that's nothing against John or his experience. In some areas he's very well experienced, he knows how the legislature works. But given those options, at least in my own urban millennial perspective, uh, it just wasn't very inspired right.
Aaron Pete:I noticed that there was such an interesting thing that happened in his life. If you just look at him as a person, you're booted from your party.
Mo Amir:Oh, the story is great.
Aaron Pete:The arc, his arc, is amazing but, like you, you also just see that, like, exactly what you're saying seems to be the case, which is you're you booted from this party? You, you need to find a new home or you run as an independent. He finds a new home in a party that's that's been quiet for so long and, like, during that period, I don't imagine he anticipated the circumstance he'd find himself in. Right, like you're making comments on things you don't know where you're going to end up, and then now you're leading a party that's doing well in the polls. And how do you reconcile some of these previous statements? Do you stand by some of them? How many of the supporters that you're gaining are those individuals? Yeah, like, how do you square that circle? Seems like it would have been a challenge, and it seems like it's a challenge he seems to still be trying to work through.
Mo Amir:He's going to have. I think and I'm projecting this at this point I think he's going to have a very difficult time with his caucus at the start. I don't know. I mean, it's really going to be a test of his leadership. I mean it's really going to be a test of his leadership. There are several strong rumors that there are people already seeking his position as leader of the conservatives, so there's people maybe wanting him to step aside or looking for that opportunity to get rid of him.
Mo Amir:He has a very let's call it diverse caucus, a lot of different views.
Mo Amir:He's promised them free votes. He promised them free votes on your show, right and so like, but but you need discipline to for a team to run effectively, and so you've already promised people free votes and to vote their consciousness and to vote for their communities, but at the same time, now you have to function as a team, and also you've ported issues, long-standing issues, from the bc liberal slash, bc united into your party which still have to be resolved as well. Uh, it's going to be tough. He's going to have a very tough go, and so it will be a test of his leadership, of how he's able to bring this team together under a shared vision, and I don't know how is he going to deal with insubordination if someone says no, you promised me free votes. I'm going to vote this way, or I want to push this private member's bill. That will make the party look out there to the public. That's going to be an interesting challenge that he has to face, that he has to face.
Aaron Pete:And your reflections on David Eby. I'd be interested in them as well because he's an individual that I think many and I think he would acknowledge he's much more policy-based. He's worked on many of the files. That was his area of expertise. He wasn't known as a campaigner. He wasn't known in that circle. I think he performed very well in the debates, but that wasn't his area of expertise and so, seeing him go through that first election as the leader of the party, it seemed like he may have had some challenges trying to emote that vision.
Mo Amir:Yeah, I mean I thought David AB will always be a good debater, one of the most cerebral people I've ever interviewed, in terms of when you're interviewing him you can tell that the wheels are moving in different ways and he's already mapped out how he's going to conclude the chat. As a campaigner he's not great. I mean. We saw it in the BCNDP leadership race where they had to, or felt the need to, disqualify the other person that was running, anjali Patarai. And I think we saw it in this campaign where in the summer the BC Conservatives were very visible and I think even throughout the campaign they were a lot more visible, certainly in downtown Vancouver and in other outlying suburbs, than the BCNDP were. I don't know. You know, I've always seen him as a solutionist.
Mo Amir:I do think that there was a bit of being out of touch with British Columbians and I think he's kind of acknowledged that is that there were a lot of concerns, whether it was public safety or just the constant idea of like hey, I swear we're pointed in the right direction.
Mo Amir:I like just give it some time. And it's like people want results. You know, people in Surrey want results, people in Vancouver want results, and they just weren't seeing it, and so his challenge is going to be he knows that he's probably going to be up against a much more formidable opposition party by the time the next election rolls around, and his challenge is going to be he's going to need to point to direct results of here's what I did, here's what I accomplished and in fairness he did do some right even when he was in cabinet as minister that he can point to whether it was getting ICBC up and running as an operational business really, and even some stuff on the housing file. I think was good that even developers would say that they support. But aside from that, I mean you just look at the dissatisfaction that British Columbians have with every file, virtually every file in this province, and it's like below water, below water, below water. Somehow he kept his favorability up, but I just don't know how long that can last for.
Aaron Pete:What issues are you enjoying covering right now?
Mo Amir:I enjoy. Well, I'm enjoying taking a break from politics in general. I know we're talking about it now but, like even you know, the first nine episodes, or the first eight episodes of our show were all about the election, and then the ninth one we just did a fun one. In terms of what do I enjoy? It's a good question. That's a good question. I mean.
Mo Amir:I think I've always maintained that the big issue is health care in this province, just because it cuts across urban, rural, homeowner, renter, young, old, we all are reliant on the same system and it affects us all and it's I don't know how you call it anything else but a disaster.
Mo Amir:And I know that they're touting, know they're touting that, oh, we've hired more nurses per capita than any other province and we brought in more family doctors.
Mo Amir:But like it is not even how I remember it.
Mo Amir:When I was a kid, I remember if I got sick, as in elementary school, we'd get a doctor's appointment that the day of or the next day, and I've I'm one of the lucky ones who has a family doctor.
Mo Amir:I can't go in to see my family doctor for like two weeks and it's like well, and then you want to go to a walk-in, you got to make an appointment there too, right. And then you hear the horror stories of the ER rooms and the waits there, and so it's not even just an interest, it's like a personal interest thing of like how do we dig ourselves out of this hole? Like I, I'm sure it. Maybe it is getting slightly better incrementally, but we're at a point now where the health policy is basically don't get sick or injured, because oh, it's going to be real tough, you know like so, uh, again, I I would say I'm personally interested, not just on an intellectual level, but like on my day to day level, of just how much longer can we be in this, in this place, with such a faltering health care system.
Aaron Pete:Yeah, it's remarkable to see the challenges that it's facing and it does feel like on some of these key issues housing included I would put housing in there as well it seems like there's a growing hopelessness in the system and I find that somewhat remarkable that we can be in this circumstance where it doesn't feel like anybody has kind of the three next steps for people to kind of grapple with.
Mo Amir:But the difference with housing, though, is that you have a population that has a self-interest in keeping home prices high, and that's homeowners, right. If you're a homeowner, you don't want to lose equity, you don't want to go underwater on your mortgage, so there's a bit of a divide on the housing file. Right, and obviously, long term, it's not good, because we've created an environment where, even if you come here, do well, work hard, you cannot get into the housing market, and we've unfortunately created this divide of haves and have-nots when it comes to intergenerational wealth based on home ownership. But, again, you do have a good segment of the population that is invested in this system. That will still be okay, but with health care, that's everyone right, and so that's the one thing I see where it's like, I don't know, that I feel more hopeless, and maybe because it's the privilege of being a homeowner, I guess. Um, and I'm not saying housing isn't an issue, I'm just saying that for a lot of people, it isn't an issue.
Aaron Pete:Right, and then, who would you like to have on as guests? Who are like some of the individuals that inspire you or that you'd be?
Mo Amir:interested to speak with. Oh man, it depends. Well, I mean, there's like the easy one, right, there's like, oh, I'd love to talk to Seth Rogen because that'd be so fun and, again, my show is very locally based, so I'd love to talk to him. Uh, on like dream guest level, I've already hit some of my dream guests, like trevor linden was one of my dream guests just because he was like he was my hero when I was a kid, so to be able to chat with him was so cool tell us about that uh well, so I I I had met him throughout my life at different junctures in my life and but being able to interview him was just so, it was surreal.
Mo Amir:And I remember I showed him these photos of like when I was a kid and I got my photo with him and he's like, oh my God, you're making me feel so old and he's such a nice guy, and so you know, that was I wouldn't say nervousness, but like it was surreal. It was. It was really cool. I'm trying to think who else was my dream? I mean, when I started the podcast, funnily enough, david Eby was my dream guest. He was the attorney general at the time, but this was pre-Cullen Commission and there was so much hype around getting the Cullen Commission going and I wanted to talk to him about it and I wanted to talk to him about it and he was such a fierce opponent in the BC legislature when he was in official opposition that I really wanted to chat with him, and being able to chat with him was a big accomplishment for me at that time. I feel much differently about standing politicians now than I do, than I did maybe back then, but nonetheless, in terms of other dream guests, if we're talking about just the entire world. I think we talked about this. We're both. I may be a lapsed UFC fan, but I'd love to talk to Chael Sonnen. Whitney Cummings is my favorite comedian. I'd love to chat with her. I'm trying to think who else is. There was a time when I really wanted to chat with Chief Adam Palmer. There was a lot going on with the VPD and their relationship with the city. We tried and I think maybe because of some of my commentary they didn't want to come on and that's fine, that's their right, so I'd love to chat with him at some point. I feel like it'll come to me.
Mo Amir:In terms of other people that I would love to. I would love to. You know, I'm trying to get Christy Clark back on the show. She was a guest during the podcast days and we've tried to get her on the television. Show Hasn't panned out yet. I'm still optimistic, but I would love to get her thoughts on what's happening and like unfiltered thoughts. But the challenge with that is she may be reentering the political arena, so her answers might be shaped in that interest as opposed to just like unfiltered.
Mo Amir:Here's what I think. How does that feel to prepare for interviews like that as well. I mean, I think, and one thing I try to do is you, you want to keep things slightly unpredictable, right, so I am fair, I give them the discussion topics, but you can make it unpredictable in terms of how you frame the question or, um, or even just again the, the tone and the mode, the mood that you set, and a lot of that has has started pre-interview. So anytime I have a guest, especially if I haven't met them before, I like chatting with them for like 15, 20 minutes, just to like maybe they'll be at more at ease. I know I will be more at ease. That helps, but in terms of prepping for it, it would. Again, with someone like Christy it would be like what's happening in the news right now, what are the big topics? Has she commented on X, y, z, you know? Can we get something out of her for that? So it is kind of dependent on circumstances, I guess.
Aaron Pete:Right, you have an organic way that you came into this, and you've talked about how you're not here for a long time. You're here for a good time. I'm just wondering what does it mean to you to have been able to follow something through to fruition in such an impactful way that you're helping contribute to an informed democracy during an election?
Mo Amir:Oh man, you make it sound so elevated, it's a privilege, it's really—it's wild, right, and it's funny talking to friends about it. And I remember over the summer I had a party and was one of my friends was like it's just so weird that you're on TV and I'm like I know it is weird, right, like, and so it's surreal. But then there is a responsibility that I think you have to the audience and, again, whether we're doing a very light episode that's more fun, or a more serious episode, I think the overall goal is always to be to engage them in local issues or things in their community that maybe they didn't know about before. Um, and so I take that responsibility very seriously. Um, as much as I say um, you know I'm here for a good time, not a long time, but I do take the work seriously, even if the segments are fun, even if the segments are very serious.
Mo Amir:I don't know how do you see it, how do you? I mean, you're you tell me, like you, you had all three leaders during the election campaign. Did you feel? What kind of sense of responsibility did you feel?
Aaron Pete:An immense weight. The first one to confirm was David Eby's team. They gave me a call and they said let's run this. We've got the date. Does this work for you? And confirmed it and the idea of being able to contribute to something like that. I thought of it as like I have a responsibility to contribute to an informed democracy. I chose not to vote in the election because I took that responsibility. You were going that neutral. You were going that neutral.
Mo Amir:You were going that objective, that you were not going to vote.
Aaron Pete:Yes and I don't. I don't want to have a final position on so many of these.
Mo Amir:Sacrificing your democratic right for democracy. Okay, okay.
Aaron Pete:Because, like even at a very, very deep level, I feel like had I voted for one side or the other, I would have been biologically showing my bias to myself. And so, like I, that's interesting.
Mo Amir:That's an interesting way to look at it.
Aaron Pete:It's something that I carried in my mind and I thought a lot about all throughout, because I found that the interviews really eyeopening, that these are just people that as much as people hear about maybe this is just provincial politics, but like as much as people hear about maybe this is just provincial politics, but like as much as people have talking points. I could tell that for many of them they weren't perhaps ready for the way that I phrased the question, or yeah, there you go like the one that I think ended up on tim.
Aaron Pete:My producer mentioned it ended up on global was my question about. Are you going to fire bonnie henry?
Aaron Pete:right to john rustad was like I wanted it to be pointed. I wanted it to be clear. I wanted the audience to have to. But, like none of I, don't share my speaking notes. Yeah, I don't share what I'm planning on asking because I don't know until, like I do my research all the way up and then I do the the morning of, like I go through, try and figure out what was asked yeah but then I do try and like I don't have any speaking notes, I don't have anything kind of memorized up here it's.
Aaron Pete:I want it to be organic because all throughout. So when I went to ubc for law school, every day I was driving out from chilliwack to vancouver wow, and listening to five hours of podcasts a day, and so I was consuming so much of the content. But what I liked was when I could press play and let go. Yeah, and I think for most people who listen through that medium, that's what they're looking for. Yeah, and if it feels like I'm trying to steer it too much, it's. The one thing I didn't like in certain interviews is when it was like they dropped that conversation because they need to move on to the next thing, and so I didn't tell any of the leaders and I found it really surreal you didn't give them any discussion topics of like here's okay, yeah, yeah, so they'll give them broad-based like hey, I want to discuss health care, I want to discuss whatever.
Mo Amir:Um, yeah, I mean, that was a very pointed question that you asked. It's interesting because when I when, when, when was that? So you interviewed in september I interviewed them in August.
Aaron Pete:They released in September, in August, okay, yeah.
Mo Amir:Yeah, I remember when I had Rustad on, my big thing was the unvaccinated healthcare workers which he's talked about. Yeah, but no one had asked him about what that costs to bring—because he said that he was going to pay back wages yeah, which again is a great slogan and especially if you feel that they deserve that, it's great but no one was asking him how much that costs. And I did kind of back of the map math and I was like do you think taxpayers want to pay this much? And you know, I wasn't particularly satisfied with his answer. But he did give an answer and he clearly just like it was evident that he no one had asked him that, and so that's, you know, very similar thing that I try to look for is like, okay, he keeps talking about this, but there's like maybe an obvious question or something direct that he hasn't, that anyone hasn't, uh, addressed at this point do you feel like there's more?
Aaron Pete:I okay, I feel there's hope because as you discussed joe rogan interviewing donald trump, that clearly was a considered plan to have potentially both candidates come on the biggest podcast show right a week before the election, like I think that was a considered idea, that that was kind of the final big shot to try and get the word out. Yeah, and then with us, I feel like there's something unique. 10 years ago you wouldn't have gone on a podcast. I don't think Christy Clark would have gone on a podcast in order to get the word out.
Aaron Pete:Oh, yeah, I mean the media is shifting in this direction and I find that really interesting.
Mo Amir:Oh yeah, that's amazing. And again, I would not exist in this space if the barrier to entry was low to produce a podcast, and I wouldn't exist in the space if we didn't have social media, particularly X for me, right or Twitter, and so that's pretty amazing. I think where it becomes and I'm saying this as someone who came from that realm it's like where it becomes an issue is when you have someone like Donald Trump. On the Joe Rogan experience and again, I'm a guilty Joe Rogan fan. I'm not a fan of everything he says or whatever, but I've been a longtime listener.
Aaron Pete:Isn't that a crazy thing? You have to say, I know because people get all weird, like you side with any person on all things I know, I know.
Mo Amir:He's a Rogan guy. I mean most dudes of a certain age dabbled in Rogan. We just have to be honest. But you know, I listened to that interview and it's like and maybe it's just because of the uniqueness of Donald Trump is like, the guy says things that are crazy and may not be true, and you almost need someone with a skilled interviewer which joe, is fair enough, but also someone who just has a wealth of knowledge, to be able to push back, even gently, against some of the things that donald trump says. And that's not an ideological thing, that's like a truth thing. And so that's the problem with also just like oh and I'm not saying you specifically, I'm just saying when you have a person like Trump, it's like, oh, let them speak.
Mo Amir:And it's like, but what if they're saying, what if something they're saying is just complete nonsense or just not based in reality? And this is going out to, you know, 100 million people. Is that valuable to society? I don't know. I mean, I don't think so, because people are not treating it like a softball interview, they're treating it like, oh, the greatest, the biggest interview of the century or decade or whatever. If it's just Joe Rogan with some comedian, that's a lot different. Or sorry, if it's just Donald Trump with some comedian, that's a lot different. But Joe Rogan isn't seen in that light and, as much as I may enjoy some of his content, um, you know, and I I don't have an answer for this, it's just a question that I'm posing is like does he have a responsibility to be better prepared on and to push back against some of the things that that Donald Trump is going to say yeah, right?
Aaron Pete:Yeah, I think that is an open-ended question. Like I think that is something that all hosts of shows in this new independent world need to start to grapple with. Yeah, audience capture is another one that I've regularly asked people who have huge sub stack followings or who've gone that path, like what's your responsibility? To stay balanced, because, like I'm sure you've seen it like, when your numbers do well on something, you could just go back to the same well again and again and again, yeah, to try and fish for the same results, and you as an interviewer or host have to resist that. But to me in that circumstance, and I think in my own interviews, the mindset is like what are and it's, uh, an apt name but like what are average joes wanting to know? Because those are the people that don't get the opportunity to ask a question into a sitting president or the potential next president is like the jfk files, aliens, like fair, these are all. You're right, and there were some there were.
Mo Amir:There were a couple of gems in that in that interview. I mean, I see it in a very similar way I I, because we're on television and the main medium now for this is van color, is television. I really try to make it for a general audience and the ethos is like, if you know nothing about a subject, don't worry, like you can follow along. Because part of the problem with a lot of political media and I'm speaking as someone who has experienced this just as a consumer before I was in media or podcasting you'd watch some of these political panels and you're like I don't know what they're talking about, like no one gave me a proper setup of like what the issue is and like you know what the stakes are.
Mo Amir:And I saw that a lot in US media, particularly because that's what I was consuming in university, and so my thing is always just like OK, let's just try to approach it from a way that if you know nothing about this, if you don't even know the guest, can you still follow along. And I think that becomes very key and I think that's what people on the internet do very well. You know that realm of like internet political media, whether it's Husson Piker on the left, or you know, we can say Joe Rogan on the right. Uh, they do that very well, right. But then the problem becomes where are the checks and balances of accountability? Yeah, right, one last, what do you complain to if Joe Rogan uh spouts misinformation?
Aaron Pete:I was speaking at hypothetically A hundred percent, like I guess spouts misinformation. I was speaking hypothetically 100 like I guess, like my is like if I think his listeners and you can disagree, but like I think they're some of the smartest in terms of their willingness. But it's such a wide net like I don't. I guess that that's why I like I believe that our, the population is far smarter than most people give our populations credit for because we don't like some of the positions we end up with. But I I do think that the best hands, the safest hands that's why we have democracy the safest hands are still our own.
Aaron Pete:And the reason that he's the biggest is because he does things in a way where people feel they can trust him to get things wrong as well and uniquely, when he was perhaps wrong or you disagree with some of his positions on certain things like there was that kind of cancellation that happened to him about things he had said he comes out and apologizes and he's built a unique trust. I think that's what great hosts do they build trust with the individuals listening to them and they, for the most part, own their mistakes when they do fail. But the you know, in this conversation. We may have gotten things wrong. In every conversation You're likely going to get something.
Mo Amir:Yeah, I'm going to watch this back and cringe at some of the things I've said, because that's just the nature of a long-form conversation.
Aaron Pete:Exactly. But once we start to decide we have to remove something like disinformation, then the arbiters of what that is start to control that and that's another challenge. Exactly. But, like, I think your story is really inspiring because it shows that the system is still capable of seeing talent and embracing that.
Mo Amir:Thank, you for that. That's very nice.
Aaron Pete:But I think that's a sign to like young up and comers, people who are interested in what you're doing, people who watch your show. Maybe I could do this. The same, and like that's what I think Joe Rogan inspired in me and perhaps a little bit in you, is this idea that, like you have a voice, you can start to ask the questions yourself. Yeah, he doesn't have a monopoly on asking questions. We don't that. That that's what an informed democracy does. It asks questions, totally.
Mo Amir:I and again, I'm not discounting the intelligence of the general public. I I do think that for that, the general public is speaking to their lived experience and what they're experiencing, and of course there's intelligence in that. I do think that oftentimes I'm not speaking about everyone, I'm just saying oftentimes there's a confusion of different roles, right? So one of my favorite tweets that I get on a consistent basis is why don't you report about this? It's like, well, I'm not a reporter. Like that's not actually my job, I'm a talk show host, I'm an opinionist. And the other favorite one I get is like you're so biased. And it's like well, of course, because I'm an opinionist, like you give your opinion from your vantage point. And biased is different than partisan, ideological is different than partisan, like.
Mo Amir:I think there is a certain level of media literacy that I benefited from being in school, and a lot of other people as well, and not even people who didn't go to, you know, school to learn about those things, I think, understand them. But I think, as a general population, we should be teaching media literacy in primary school, like grades maybe five and up, and in high school, the difference between them. And they can't distinguish the difference between something that is fair and something that is objective, like those two things are also very different. In my mind and I think in the mind of a lot of people, Joe Rogan can be fair, and he often is, but he's not objective, right, uh? And so describe the difference, well, I think. Well, fairness goes back to that idea of like, um, you're coming onto my show, I'm going to ask you some tough questions, uh, but also I ask everyone tough questions, uh.
Mo Amir:Objective is like I'm not showing you any of my bias. Or if, let's say, you, you make a good point and I go that's a, that's a fantastic point, I slip that in. Oh my God, he's gassing up the guest, right. And so objective is one of those things that I think. We all carry different biases, especially as hosts. We carry different biases and different perspectives, and to try to hide that, I don't understand what the point is. People know where I stand on a lot of different issues, maybe not everything, hopefully, but there's no question that I'm not objective. But you can ask anyone that's been on my show was I fair? And I think most of them would say yes. So you know like I see a difference that way, and again, I understand it's a nuance, but I think it's an important nuance to understand, right.
Aaron Pete:The last piece I just wanted to ask about is how do we continue to inspire people to find their own voice in the way that you have done so eloquently, Like how do we support people? Do we need?
Mo Amir:more hot takes in this economy. Is that what you're suggesting, aaron? That everyone I mean I'm joking, but JJ McCullough, when I interviewed him, he talked about this and he's like we have too many people giving out too many hot takes. And I don't necessarily disagree, because we also need more local news and local reporters, right Like that's. That's the base from which you build opinions and voice and all this other stuff from which you build opinions and voice and all this other stuff. Obviously, you build it from personal experience as well, but that base of people actually doing the journalism-ing is very important. So I wish actually more people funneled into that.
Mo Amir:I started this late in life, Otherwise maybe that would have been the route that I would have started in. But in terms of finding your voice very important, I think everyone's entitled to that. We all have social media, so you have that platform right and how you grow it and what it becomes is what you work towards. I guess, in terms of what you're doing, I think it's just understanding that there's an indelible nature to the internet, that there's an indelible nature to the internet, and so, while it is great to express your opinion, you should be very careful and very considerate of. Is this something that I want to live with for the rest of my life? And that's something Brent Chapman should have probably asked himself, and so maybe some of these other candidates that get in trouble is like, probably asked himself, and maybe some of these other candidates that get in trouble is like would I want to be held accountable to this statement? And listen, we've all said or typed stupid things on the internet.
Mo Amir:I'm not saying we should spiral into purity culture. I'm just saying that if you want to be opinionated, you know, think about things. Think about things in a way of am I being bigoted? Am I insulting someone's physical appearance? Am I being dishonest or am I informed enough? Have I read enough? Have I seen enough of the other side and my side and whatever other side to give an opinion on this? Because it's very easy to type something out and throw it out there in the world in the ether, but it's it can be very difficult to bring it back once you have.
Mo Amir:So I would encourage anyone to absolutely use their voice, but also recognize that there's a whole world beyond the internet as well. Right, and so you know this is something that I've thought about consciously of. Like you know you obviously want all of us want to be a good person within our own circles. But then at what point do you say, if I really feel passionate about something, I should actually get involved myself. But then, if you do get involved, does that affect your voice as a host or whatever? Right? So these are all important questions, but I would encourage everyone to use their voice and also just treat others with kindness.
Mo Amir:Treat people who disagree with you and I'm saying people that disagree with you, not people that are rude to you, but people that disagree with you. Treat them with kindness, because most people are pretty chill. I don't know Like that's my experience. Kindness because most people are pretty chill. I don't know Like that's my experience is that most people are very chill even when you disagree with them, and they just want to. Some people just like chatting and thinking about these things, and that's how you move people. You don't move people by hammering on the head with something and I'm sure some people see my commentary that way, but, like, at the end of the day, you don't have to read it. I my commentary that way, but, like, at the end of the day, you don't have to read it, right, I'm not forcing you.
Aaron Pete:You can only talk to me if you believe this. So, um to, to clarify a little bit. Yeah, my question is is not voice in a political sense, but I'm curious. There has to be a certain level and I think I have it, and I think you may have it when you started a little bit of like self-delusion, of like willingness to to take the plunge and start. Oh, ok, yeah so like people may not like be into political, so people who are already interested in doing that and whatever they, whatever inspires them.
Aaron Pete:You did something in the beginning where you were like I'm going to go down this path, like something's happened to me. I'm going to go down this path, I'm going to follow through and like, I don't know if you know the stats on starting a podcast, but they're horrendous. Like, most people don't get to episode one. Most people don't never get to episode 10. Most people never get to episode 100. Like, most people say they're going to start and they don't start. And it's true for art, it's true for theater, it's true for whatever endeavor Most people don't follow through. You know what I think it is. It used to be like most people don't follow through.
Mo Amir:You know what I think it is. It used to be like I'm going to write a book one day and now it's like I'm going to start a podcast. It's like the one has replaced the other, even though starting a podcast, I would argue, is much easier than writing a book. I think if you are truly inspired, feel inspired, and if you are very interested in this space or any creative venture, just fucking do it. You learn along the way. I think a lot of people get trapped in the planning stage and they over plan and then they talk themselves out of it. Oh no, it's going to be way too difficult. I think this goes with entrepreneurship as well. Difficult, I think this goes with entrepreneurship as well. Just start doing the groundwork and you'll start to see openings of where you can exist in that space. But if you just sit, sit at home and start looking on the internet, how do I? Oh man, there's going to be. Oh man, I don't know how to do this. You'll never get anything done. And so it's like you know, as I just told you earlier, it's when I had the idea. I knew that I had to act on it right away, and the first thing I did was look for podcast space, right, and as I was doing that, and then I started conceptually thinking of what the show would be like, who would I have on? But you could could multitask those things. So, as silly as it sounds, um, it's literally just start doing it and who knows what that might become. You know you, might you might start thinking of a podcast and then it actually becomes. You know, something else. Might might maybe it becomes a book, I don't know. Um, but yeah, you're right, like people get excited about something and they almost have this like self paralysis of like oh, it's going to be so much work.
Mo Amir:The other thing is any goal and this is kind of my basis for goal setting is people focus too much on the end result and it's like just focus on the process. People focus too much on the end result and it's like just focus on the process. So, if your goal is to get fit, don't think about, like, all the weight you want to lose or how you know big your arms, how big you want your arms to be. Think about, ok, I got to go to the gym three times a week, work on the process and in that process. That's where you should be deriving your reward from. Oh man, I did it. I said that I set out the goal of three times a week. I did it. Um, and I don't know that's worked for me. What, what, what keeps you going?
Aaron Pete:The first was that if I was going to do it, I felt a huge responsibility to my mother, who lives with us, and my partner of like. If I'm going to spend two to three thousand dollars on podcast, equipment like this can't sit in a closet. Like this can't be something where I said I was going to do it and I don't follow through, because that money could have gone to home repairs. It could have gone to lots of car repairs, all types of other uses, and I'm asking them to trust me with this so I have to take on that responsibility to actually follow through.
Aaron Pete:And the other piece was I'm not going to stop until I feel like I've delivered on what I wanted it to end up. Well, what do you want to deliver? I'm not sure that's a week by week, month by month thing, but until I felt like I had delivered what I wanted to. In this endeavor and I've learned so much by speaking with so many different people. But I've also grown as a consequence of going through this process and I'm not done growing, so I perhaps I'll be done when I'm done growing in this.
Mo Amir:Right. Yeah, one thing I would say is I like to set certain benchmarks, and usually it's a time-based benchmark, right? So let's say I'm committed to a process, and I did this for the show, for the podcast as well. I said let's do 30 episodes, right, and at 30, we will reassess where I'm at and if I actually still want to do this, because then it kind of forces you to at least get to that finish point, so you feel somewhat accomplished and then you can decide what you want to do. And I remember at 30, that's when the CKNW stuff started and I was like, well, I have to keep going now and I do like it. And so I found that, in terms of goal setting, that can also be very useful because it just provides like a self-assessment, right, and that's anything.
Mo Amir:Again, going back to the fitness stuff useful because it just provides like a self assessment, right, and that's anything. Again, going back to the fitness stuff or whatever, it's just like any goal you set, set a period of time, ask yourself if you stuck to the process that you committed to and then decide, okay, do I still like doing this or not? Um, because at least that way you're not just like giving up in the middle of it. Yeah, have you ever felt the? Ever felt the, the desire to like?
Aaron Pete:I want to stop doing this no, no, the good, no, no the. Where I want to take it has changed and modified, but my favorite response from a guest is often that's a really good question. Um, tim tracked that for a while. How often I was getting that Did.
Mo Amir:I drop any of those. Tim yes sir, Okay, Good, no, no, I think, especially in this realm, passion is everything right and like you, just have to do what drives you and the hard, tangible goals of what you want to achieve. I think gets in the way of the fun that this is 100%.
Aaron Pete:How can people stay in?
Mo Amir:contact with your work. Oh man, if you weren't bored already, this is VanColor, thursday nights at 9 on Check. You can follow me. My main social is xTwitter at VanColor. Color is spelled the British way with the U. I don't know. I'm on TikTok, I'm on Instagram. You'll just look me up please, if you're interested.
Aaron Pete:As I said, I find you to be a huge inspiration to me, you're so kind, stop, stop.
Aaron Pete:Because I think one, it takes a lot of risk to start this, because I think one it takes a lot of risk to start this. I, unlike many others like, understand what that starting process can feel like when you're on your own trying to book guests, trying to plan things and to follow it through to where you've taken. It is really inspiring and it's a. It's a. We have a lot of criticisms of legacy media. You hear them all the time, but the fact that it should be criticized.
Aaron Pete:Like it's not beyond reproach or beyond criticism, so yeah, but when, when I see you being able to play the role that you did during the election, that gives me a lot of hope. Uh, as I've told vashi capello, I find she gives me a lot of hope that we're figuring this all out, that we're getting through this in a good way because you can point to stats that things aren't going the right way but in these moments I I have a lot of solace in that the right voices, I feel like, are getting the right guests and reaching the right people and inspiring people to tune in and, uh, get informed on aaron, that is so kind of you.
Mo Amir:Thank you for that. That means a lot to me. And listen, I love seeing what you're doing. I'm inspired, I feel a certain kinship for people that go through the same thing, and I think it's so cool. And I hope you just keep it up Because, again, who knows what this will become and what it will evolve to? I've seen some of the guests that you've had. I've seen some of the numbers that you've posted on some of your interviews. It's so impressive and so keep up the good work. Truly, it's so impressive and so keep up the good work. Uh, truly, and I do mean it, I I wouldn't take an hour and a half drive just to talk to anyone, but I'm here because, uh, I, I do hold your work and what you're doing with a lot of reference as well.
Aaron Pete:So thanks for having me on appreciate it. This is van color. Go check it out. I can't recommend it enough. Watching the youtube videos, the quality is there, the audio is like everything is coming together nicely and you bring such a sincere energy to it. So I highly recommend everybody go check it out. Thank you.
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