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BIGGER THAN ME PODCAST
Get inspired by people who make a difference bigger than themselves with host Aaron Pete. From overcoming obstacles to finding motivation, these guests will inspire you to dream bigger and strive for greatness!
Popular guests include Premier David Eby, Vassy Kapelos, Brent Butt, Ariel Helwani, Rav Arora, Tara Henley and the Millennial Therapist.
BIGGER THAN ME PODCAST
180. Vassy Kapelos: Could Trump Tariffs Cause a Recession in Canada?
Aaron Pete sits down with Vassy Kapelos, Chief Political Correspondent for CTV News, to tackle pressing topics like Canada's political polarization, the impact of Donald Trump’s tariffs, whether journalists should avoid bias, and the challenges of holding leaders like Justin Trudeau accountable.
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast. Here is your host, Aaron. There's a lot going on in Canadian and American politics right now. Finding trusted news sources is vital to staying informed. I'm speaking with the Chief Political Correspondent for CTV News. We explore where we're at in Canadian politics, the impact of the recent US election, the importance of questioning power and navigating the polarization we face in our society. My guest today is Vashi Capellos Vashi, there are a few guests that I think need an introduction, but just briefly, would you mind introducing yourself to people who might not be acquainted with your work?
Vassy Kapelos:Sure, hi, aaron, it's so good to see you again. I'm Vassy Kapelos and I work for CTV and their chief political correspondent and host a bunch of their TV shows and a nationalist syndicated radio show as well.
Aaron Pete:Contributing to an informed electorate. I always love being able to speak with you. My first question for you is where are we in Canadian politics right now from your perspective? Oh, what a great question.
Vassy Kapelos:I think we're on the ever-extending precipice of a federal election.
Vassy Kapelos:I was actually saying this the other day to someone.
Vassy Kapelos:I can't believe in the past, like two and a half months, how little discussion I have been able to have on the show about policy and how all of the policy debate has really been subsumed by an overarching narrative about whether or not the government will survive.
Vassy Kapelos:And that has taken like a very specific posture around the privilege debate in parliament, which is very wonky but essentially has taken over the possibility of legislation being introduced or debated. So that's how it specifically has manifested. But from a narrative perspective it's even more manifested Like that's what's happening on the ground, but otherwise, like every move, even when they do introduce stuff or when the opposition says stuff, it's all about like jockeying around an election and around whether the question of whether or not this government will survive and I just it has been so pronounced over the last three months that like that's the thing I would say about where we are right now. It's not where we were a year ago. It most certainly is on its way to an election. I don't know when. I just know it's before, you know, in the fall or before of next year and I don't know if you can escape that in the next number of months.
Aaron Pete:Do you think Canadians should be optimistic about that? Do you think we should be concerned that that is the state of affairs of this government right now? How do you think Canadians should digest that information? Another great question.
Vassy Kapelos:I sort of see it a couple of different ways. I'm not sure I'll preface my question and do what I wish politicians would say to me. I'm not sure I have the most direct way of answering that question. I think sort of two things can be true at the same time.
Vassy Kapelos:I think it's unavoidable and I remember back to the last year of the Harper government and how much in particular, as the months dwindled down to when that election would happen in 2015, that it became very similar, like everything was viewed was in the context of an election, and so I do feel like there's a bit of inevitability about it, and that is the way our electoral cycle works. To a certain degree, particularly at the end of a 10 year mandate, right or a nine or 10 year mandate, there is something intrinsically kind of about that that becomes about an election. So I'm not to, like you know, cry my soup over over something like that. I'm not too upset. I don't think Canadians should be. However I do.
Vassy Kapelos:I do think definitely the fact that, like there's no legislation, that there's no debate going on around legislation, even if that legislation was being introduced with an eye towards a potential election, that's not the end of the world because ultimately, it's with an eye to trying to gain support from Canadians that would ultimately lead you to win in an election Either way, whatever party you're looking at. So I do feel like it's not great that they're not doing stuff that will address the issues that matter to people, but it's also not true like nothing is happening. You know, there's still a lot of stuff that has gone on, that continues to go on. It's just this weird inertia that if it persisted, let's say, for another eight months, like that's not good, I don't think Canadians should love that, but if it persists for a bit longer, I do think it's a normal course of the cycle.
Aaron Pete:Is it better or worse that we now have a definitive decision for the United States election. So now, is it better that we get to hear kind of the political parties when an election does come, we get to hear kind of the political parties, when an election does come, talk about how they would approach the issues and then perhaps get their own mandate voted in to work with the United States in way A, b or C? Or would it have been better if we had somebody at the helm now who already had a mandate in that position, able to kind of take the lead on this?
Vassy Kapelos:Yeah, I think I think I got to get where you're going at in that. So, insofar as and we certainly heard this, I think, from the conservatives insofar as, like, obviously, given public opinion polling, I think the last time we spoke, like things were just starting to go downhill for the liberals in a in a big way, and they have stayed there Right, and even amplified over the last number of months. So there's this contention that the prime minister is essentially in a politically weakened state, like, is he the best person to navigate this new threat from, in particular around the blanket tariffs from the incoming president? I understand that discussion. I also think, though, like, if you look at it on the face of it, like he does have a mandate right now. Like he, he was elected free and fair in the last election and, yes, public opinion polls show that a majority of Canadians are not happy with the direction of the country. They're not happy with him, but ultimately, the only formal expression of that sentiment is a vote, and the last vote that happened put this prime minister into that position. So I think, until there is another election and I do understand the push for one, sure, but like he officially does have the mandate to kind of negotiate on our behalf and defend Canadian interests, and you may not agree with the way he's doing that or you may not align with what he defines as in the best interest of Canadians to the fact that there was a vote and there will be a vote.
Vassy Kapelos:As for what happens when that vote does occur and the degree to which what's happening in the US might impact people's choices or ultimately what the next government faces, I think it's huge.
Vassy Kapelos:It feels like a complete channel changer and not in the way of distracting, in just that everything feels different, and I think primarily because you can't overstate the potential impact of what a 25 percent tariff would do to our economy. I interviewed the premier in your province, as you have premier Amy, premiers across the country, premier Ford, premier Smith. There isn't a premier who does not say, if those tariffs are applied, that their provincial economies would enter almost immediately into a recession. Like that is an enormous deal. That is a huge weight that faces any politician at any level in this country, either now or coming into power. I don't know how it doesn't become a massive election issue, right, like I don't know how it doesn't at least in part inform the way in which Canadians vote, like you're going to be looking at, ok, who can navigate this, who can handle this and who's going to get the best outcome for Canadians. So I do feel like it's had a big impact and I do feel like it will continue to.
Aaron Pete:The way I was going with the question is because everything I've understood and I try and consume as much politics and understand the issues to the best of my ability but it was that Justin Trudeau and the liberal government actually did a really good job at negotiating the first time Trump was in power. In regards to renegotiating NAFTA, things happen, and so I do think if there is an election now held in the future, that actually would benefit, because then you can run on. We've done this before. Hopefully we can do it again in a good way and deliver for Canadians.
Aaron Pete:The challenge for the opposition leader is that they don't have that previous experience. They don't have a track record to run on, and so there's this similar isolationism you've heard from the Conservatives of like we'll just focus on making Canada stronger and better and improving our economy, and so I don't know how that would go. But I find it more interesting as a voter to have them both kind of pitch their solutions, rather than if we had had an election, say in the fall of this year, and had that resolved. Then we would be going in and not knowing if this person actually does have a good plan. So I feel like the consequence for Canada is that we're in a better position if we have the election in the next 10 months.
Vassy Kapelos:Yeah, maybe that's a good point. It's so interesting that you say because I do think that the Liberals are going to make that argument and they have right over the past few weeks, we have survived this once, we can survive it again. And you make a fair point, like I think, objectively speaking, the fact that NAFTA still exists is the primary metric by which we can judge the success of their initial navigation of Donald Trump's first presidency. And no recession maybe, yeah, at the time. It's just the conditions are a bit different now, right, both externally and internally, and externally, I mean, the threat is not I'm going to rip up NAFTA. We need to renegotiate it. That's still two years away, believe me.
Vassy Kapelos:The threat's on the table but isn't fixed or whatever he is highlighting in his in his threat to apply those tariffs doesn't appease him that he will sort of as arbitrarily as it feels, apply this 25 percent tariff across the board, and it's he says he's going to do it January 20th, on day one, through an executive order. So, like the time, we don't even have years to sort of escape the dramatic impact that this would have. We have just a month and a half. So I don't know if the argument will work in the same way. You know, I think, like we can all hope as Canadians, that whomever is leading the church can advocate for us and make sure that our economy escapes a recession. But I think you make a good point. Like, either way it's going to be, it's going to be a part of he's going to be there for four years, so it's going to impart a real piece of analysis for everyone deciding how to vote.
Aaron Pete:You covered the election very well for Canadians, for us to understand what was going on. Did this outcome surprise you? Was it unexpected? You obviously visited the US to understand and get kind of that real-world view of what was going on. Did this outcome surprise you?
Vassy Kapelos:I definitely wouldn't say it surprised me. I feel like I covered the first Trump win and I remember being in New York City for that and the degree to which, like what I was conveying to like our audiences was met with surprise at the time and that experience really like stuck with me, if that makes sense, in that I didn't ever want to be part of sort of like the machine that thought this could never happen or whatever, and I thought I was very lucky that my employer this summer really allowed me to go meet people who do support both candidates at the, both the RNC and the DNC, and get a sense myself of like what was driving their support and the level of support that they did hold for each of the candidates and sort of what their sentiment around an election was for each of the candidates and sort of what their sentiment around an election was. And I remember like that. The interesting thing is the election changed so much over the summer insofar as, like he was nearly killed Right, he got that, that assassination attempt. Then the RNC was just a few days later. I was and I conveyed this on TV at the time like beyond struck by the degree to which people who are at the RNC were so incredibly faithful to him as a person, like forget about his politics, forget about right, left, republican, democrat, like they were there for Trump. They were so motivated and you had to think at the time how much of this is like something that's always there and how much of it was informed by the assassination attempt, the arm in the air, the whole picture of it all.
Vassy Kapelos:Right, but I did leave that. And even when you talk to people it was in Milwaukee Every cab driver I had, everybody at the hotel, was telling me Trump's going to win this thing. This was when Biden was still in the race, right, and so I left and I said even on TV, like I feel like it would take a miracle for Trump not to win at this point. It felt very much like it would take a miracle for Trump not to win at this point. It felt very much like it was because of how motivated his supporters were, like it felt inevitable. But then a few days later I'm in Chicago and airing a show from the hotel because Joe Biden quit and I think like what happened with that was it was such a seismic moment in politics and in that race and in American political history that it was impossible not to feel like the ground had shifted right, just because of how big of a deal it was. And so then you go to the DNC not too long after that and there's certainly momentum there. But, as I said, at that time too, like the momentum was there in a big way, there was enthusiasm that was sorely lacking for Joe Biden certainly, but you didn't feel as though there was the same level of devotion to the quote-unquote cause as there was at the RNC.
Vassy Kapelos:So ultimately, when you know in the months that followed the polls bore out that it was very tight, it made sense. It didn't seem crazy to me and I think this, you know this conclusion many people have reached, that the polls were totally wrong. I'm sort of a bit of a contrarian on like the polls were all within the margin of error. The margin of error was decided. It just all went one way.
Vassy Kapelos:Ultimately he won things by one and a half to two percent, which is within a margin of error. It's just everywhere that happened. So the win was decisive and and wide in scope. But ultimately it wasn't like all of a sudden she lost by 20 percent or he won by, by 25 percent. And so I, I, I wasn't shocked. Um, I guess the only thing that was like, quite like, oh, was the decisive nature of it right and the degree to which, particularly a lot of places where they were going to make lots of gains or gain lots of ground as Democrats like, never came to fruition and the gains that he made in traditionally Democratic places like I remember that night, new Jersey and Virginia, taken way longer than we thought they would to be called for the Democrats Like. That was very like. I'm not sure I would have expected that would to be called for the Democrats Like that was very like.
Aaron Pete:I'm not sure I would have expected that. Okay, I really want to linger on what you said about being a part of that machinery and having a feeling that your audience or you were like couldn't believe the outcome from 2016. Because that really does fascinate me. I spoke to Steve Paikin and we had a really interesting discussion. The part where him and I I feel like differed pretty significantly and I laid out three different arguments for how I come to this conclusion.
Aaron Pete:I feel personally that you and the show you host is the most unbiased, most open-ended political show. When I look at CBC or Global News as kind of their anchor shows, like when I watch yours, I feel like it is unbiased and willing to go any direction. The conversation needs to go to inform Canadians, like that's your panelists, the people you interview, the voices you hear from. I get that energy and Steve Paking kind of pointed it back at me. Maybe it's my bias that I'm kind of seeing that through my own tea leaves. But then the interview we we did, that's the comments, hundreds and hundreds of comments from people saying you are one of the last strong journalists, um, in the corporate news, that that is supporting these voices and making sure this is heard. So like I don't feel like I like that's his opinion that I I might have a bit of bias.
Aaron Pete:I don't think that bears out when I look at the voices and when I laid out my argument as to who I hear from and how they frame the discussions in other shows. That's just my personal perspective. But when you talk about this machinery, the only thing when you talk about the Joe Biden stuff that makes me think of is like the Joe Scarborough sharp as a tack, the best I've ever seen him like a week and a half before the guy resigns like that. That builds mistrust between the audience and and the person. And then he comes out like I think it was a week after that and was like, yeah, I think he needs to resign, this is the best path. Like that change, I think, is so jarring for people. How do you, how do you approach that? How do you, how do you digest that when you see it happen? How do you manage that within your own world? Because, as I said, I think you're very good at not letting your audience become so surprised by by events well, that's very kind of.
Vassy Kapelos:I appreciate those comments very much. I I I would say a few things. I think. I think I, I can be culpable of it too.
Vassy Kapelos:Like I think, when you raise the example of joe biden, for, uh, specifically, um, like there were moments when I think back of watching his press conferences, watching certain things where you know you would be like, huh, this, this scenes off, right. But then I remember I would try to, like, you know, I'm not there, so so then I try to consume what I can from mainstream and other sources about like, what's really going on. And you know, while the mainstream sources can be viewed as dismissive of that, and I think that's fair to say, the like, non-mainstream sources were so like next level about it and it was all memes and I didn't, I couldn't really discern in a great way, like what was authentic or not. That I felt like I'm confused to me, to be honest, until the debate and I remember the night of the debate, we did a special and it was like the second it ended. I think Scott Reed was one of my panelists. I remember him being like it's done, it's over, like, and people were at that point free and fair to be like. You know there's no, there's no way you can ignore what you just saw. But the fact that it was as stark and as sort of pronounced as it was that night made me think a little bit about my own shortcomings and reflect on like how did I contribute to a world in which this was the shock that it was? I feel like it's a little bit harder only because it is the US.
Vassy Kapelos:So like if this hadn't happened in Canada, it would be all on me and I would be like literally like what? Where did I go astray? But even it was a good opportunity. I mean, the thing is like we're just people doing this job. No-transcript, because when I went to New York and I talked to Trump supporters there is actually my now husband was my cameraman and we were like talking to people on the ground there and I remember, two days before the election were like nobody here thinks they're going to lose. Nobody thought it. And and that was the first indication we had like maybe this isn't what the consensus view is like, maybe maybe there is some sort of surprise in store.
Vassy Kapelos:And I remember thinking like why am I so surprised at this point to have that conveyed to me and it was like a real life lesson to me.
Vassy Kapelos:It's why I really wanted to go to the RNC and I just feel like there's no substitute for talking to people and getting the information firsthand Because, as I pointed, like when I tried to figure out the Biden thing and like where I may have gone wrong it's very difficult to get straight up stuff Right and and I know people are disappointed with mainstream media and I'm not saying they're they're free of any of that culpability but a lot of the sources that aren't verified, that aren't sort of that, don't have some sort of code of ethics or anything like. Some of it is very hard to get through to like I don't know what to trust there and so I lean away from it in certain in sort of informing exactly what I present to the world, and so all of that is like I don't know part of part of like getting better at what I do and and, like I said, like I'm not going to, sometimes I'm going to fall down, like I don't know how to avoid that except for keep trying not to.
Aaron Pete:Sometimes I'm going to fall down, like I don't know how to avoid that, except for keep trying not to the big takeaway and maybe this is like a silly question but like, how do you hold on to that willingness to like almost recalibrate during these moments when I don't know what I hear, when I consume kind of like the idea of where media is at? It's often like everybody's talking to the same people, so they kind of get stuck in their own echo chambers and then these things surprise them. How do you keep that humility to want to recalibrate, like where does that come from for you?
Vassy Kapelos:It comes from, like, completely inside. Like I have to say that, you know, to the credit of all the networks I've worked at, there has never been anyone who has said to me like, do this, do that, tell it this way, tell it that way. So I have complete free will. So if I'm falling short on something, it's on me. And this has been a real sort of evolution in my career where it's like, you know, you start out in any job and it's easy to blame other people, right, it's like, well, I didn't have the resources to do that, they didn't have someone over there, they didn't, you know, whatever it is, but ultimately, like, you're the master of your own destiny.
Vassy Kapelos:I really believe I'm lucky enough to be able to say that, because not everyone is afforded that kind of opportunity. And it's really true. Where I've worked, I feel like I feel sad that the impression is so different and I understand why it sometimes is. But like, truly nobody has ever told me you know, you should have gone harder on Trump, you should have gone easier on, but like, like nothing like that. So if I fell short, it's on me and I mean I think I said this to you last time like this isn't just a job to me, this is the career I want to have for as long as this exists.
Vassy Kapelos:I'm very proud to do what I do and I I take it very seriously and I just don't believe me pretending that I'm never going to make a mistake is going to help anybody, right, and so I have a lot of humility what I come to, because I feel like I have no, I mean, there's no other way that I, that I should be, and so I, I, yeah, I don't really hesitate, I guess, to to go to that place because I'm allowed to, I have total free will to. That's my job, and I feel like if I want to be a leader in this industry, I've got to do things like that.
Aaron Pete:My next question is what is your job? If you were to define it by your own definition, what is your job?
Vassy Kapelos:You inform Canadians about what's happening in the halls of power that ultimately has an impact on their lives, and to hold the people who occupy those halls accountable.
Aaron Pete:You talk about accountability. Can you share a moment in an interview or something where you felt like you really were able to hold power accountable, oh?
Vassy Kapelos:you just froze. Sorry, one second again. Sorry, I don't know what just happened, but you totally Give me one second. Okay, now you're back. Now you're back. Your internet connection is unstable. This is weird. It's never happened. I'm so sorry. No worries, oh, I'm fine, Okay.
Aaron Pete:You're coming in clear too. It's great, like it's not coming in like later.
Vassy Kapelos:Okay, it's not like we're a telecommunications company, it's fine pardon me anything.
Aaron Pete:You talk about accountability. I'm wondering if there's a moment where you held the power accountable that stood out to you as a meaningful moment what do you mean by meaningful?
Vassy Kapelos:like something that that I remember or that was like sort of contentious in some way, or like if I had to, if I had to form a guess.
Aaron Pete:I imagine when people, when politicians, come on your show, they know what they're in for somewhat, they know that they're going to be asked tough questions and so I imagine that after that interview, decisions are made on what the reception of that is going to be and what decisions need to be made, and I imagine that an interview with you can influence the political discussion broadly. I'm just curious as to how the impact holding power, accountable can have when you're able to do it effectively.
Vassy Kapelos:It's a good question. I'm not sure that necessarily I go in thinking about like sort of inject, like what will this change? What will this do? I sort of have a bit more of a myopic view in that I. I'm thinking about okay, what is it that I really think that they haven't been transparent about or they haven't offered enough detail on, or like their answers so far have been very wanting, if that makes sense.
Vassy Kapelos:And so there are like some moments recently where you know, for example, I interviewed, right after Trump, the foreign affairs minister, and I was asking her about defense spending because I had interviewed Kelly Craft, who was Trump's ambassador, still close to the Trump world, and she had really hurt on the two percent and how we need to speed things up. And so I turned to put the question to Minister Jolie, like are you willing to? And she didn't. You know, she said stuff but didn't answer. I asked again, she said stuff, she didn't answer and anyway, at the end of that she like kind of went well, I know it's your strategy to ask a question four times.
Vassy Kapelos:I thought that was a pretty telling moment and that sort of struck me because I actually think that is it's not a strategy. It's just, if I don't get an answer, I'm not just going to move on, and so that was a moment. And so that was a moment. And then I also interviewed Premier Danielle Smith recently and about a lot of the legislation she had introduced around gender affirming care, and I had asked her a pretty pointed series of questions about what evidence she had to support that policymaking. And again similar thing. It was like you know, ok well, do you have this evidence? No, I don't.
Aaron Pete:Then why are you willing to sort of constrain rights and you know, et cetera, et cetera, back and forth. That was a huge moment when she said like hundreds, even thousands. And then you were like, well, there's a difference.
Vassy Kapelos:Yeah, and a lot of her supporters were really mad at that interview and like really sort of came at me saying that I was what was the word? I got a lot of emails sort of saying like I was supportive of experimenting on kids and stuff like that. So that had an impact in a way. Not necessarily like you know what I mean, I don't care. Like I'm very like confident in the questions that I ask, but I sometimes like you just don't know. You know what I mean, how something is going to be interpreted, and so those are two things that kind of stick out to me more recently.
Aaron Pete:Interesting Along those same veins. In preparing for an interview, is it a challenge? Is the format at all ever a challenge from your perspective, because there's not enough space or time to maybe humanize the person? That's something that was very rewarding in my interview with Pattity haidu is like we had some time to kind of just humanize, get to know the person, then get into some tough questions. Do you, do you reflect on that at all as a challenge or do you enjoy the format?
Vassy Kapelos:I think you do such a good job. I think I, I think watching your interviews has, uh, like I I have envy, right, and that you you do have the time, but you you handle it so well. You do a great mix of like getting to know somebody, which I do think is certainly like great for people who are watching and then also great for the person who's being interviewed. And then you also ask a substantive, tougher questions, which I think is excellent. Like it's such a great platform.
Vassy Kapelos:It's just not the one that I've been bestowed, and I'm pretty aware of that and and like, honestly, if, maybe, if I had a different type of job or a different opportunity, I too would enjoy that. I just don't, like I have 10 to 12 minutes and so I can't do any of the humanizing stuff. I mean, I can just be in, you know, I think, look, I'm hammering hard in those 10 minutes, but I'm trying to do it in a respectful way. Always, and that's important to me as well I'm not there to bludgeon anybody, I'm there to actually get some answers, and so I try to like navigate that as best I can. But sure, it would be nice if it's not the job right now.
Aaron Pete:Agreed, I totally understand. I was just curious about that. The other one that I wanted to ask you about and I actually asked my producer this beforehand, just to try and see maybe I'm crazy, but do you at all feel like liberals or left-leaf people on the left side of the spectrum maybe get, um, a bit more deference, because it's often coming from a place of kindness or understanding in a way that I don't think maybe conservatives get that level of deference like? The one area that stands out to me as an example is when pierre pauliev talks about safe supply and he was like why are you calling safe supply? It's not safe supply, it's drugs. Like it's not like I don't know what you think it is, but it's drugs, drugs.
Aaron Pete:And I just like in that moment I just thought like we do shape the conversation around words and words when you say safe supply, like who wouldn't be against something that's safe, like it's? It almost is baked into the wording that we use. That like you almost start from a better position if you were arguing safe supply than criminalizing. Like the positions are automatically starting them at a different place. I I would say and I was just reflecting on does does that impact the political conversation at all, and I would just be curious on your reflections on that. Do we give more?
Vassy Kapelos:such an interesting question.
Vassy Kapelos:I'm not sure if I know the answer, because I think, like I think in the same token, you know, if conservatives, let's say, are using the words hard drugs to describe it like, neither is like perfectly honest, if that makes sense, condotes a certain sentiment, and liberals or more progressives are hoping that the term, as you put it, safe supply, connotes a different sentiment as well.
Vassy Kapelos:I think the in the aggregate, I don't know. I think it's worth thinking about if, if, if, there's sort of more deference to certain terms because, like, those are more associated with the progressive side of things, maybe. But I also think, like in that debate for example, it may have backfired in some circles, right, and I think there is even a cognizance of that among liberals, because they were kind of more gung ho a few years ago about the idea of, for example, decriminalization and they, as soon as that became a hot debate and I think words were employed on both sides to try and again connote a certain sentiment, they like backed right off the possibility of it happening in Toronto, right? No-transcript, I'm not sure I provide more deference one way or the other and I don't think that reporter came at it thinking I'm going to call it safe supply to make Pierre Pelliev look bad, if that makes sense.
Aaron Pete:That's what I mean. It's almost unintentional. When you say something like are you against safe supply, it's starting the conversation from are you against things that are safe?
Vassy Kapelos:It starts from a different person If you say like, are you pro like because like, because you're you're, you know you. Are you pro hard drugs? Right, like, that's the same. It's sort of the same level of dishonesty in that it's yes, they are, but there is like a control over the supply in a way. But then on the other side, like, is that control just a fallacy and is it still keeping that in the system? Like, I see? I definitely see where both are coming from.
Aaron Pete:It's one of the more divisive subjects for sure that doesn't demonstrate, like my, my bias or like I. So like and tim just got mad at me before this I didn't vote in the provincial election because I got to interview, um, all of the leaders, because I don't I don't want to know my bias and like I don't know either.
Vassy Kapelos:Yeah, do you okay? Okay, can you elaborate on this? Yeah, I don't, I don't either. For the same reason, I just want a clean conscience. I mean I and it's it's hard to come to grips with that because I believe so much in the ability to vote and what everyone went through so that we can be afforded that opportunity piece of uh, you know every politician I interview, every piece of tape that I do like I just want to be free of any confirmation of my bias, like I just don't want to have that hanging over my head. And I said I feel, in my experience, since I have, you know, embraced that like I feel less, um, encumbered, like it is, it is, it is being a good practice for me, though please don't take that as me telling anybody not to vote.
Aaron Pete:No, I completely agree. It was what I felt called to, because I didn't want to put a name. I didn't feel like the the benefit of casting a ballot and like learning that for myself, discovering what my position might be like. I do feel like that's definitive until the next election and I didn't want to carry that forward where I either felt like I owed a debt to the other side or that I was on a team Like I didn't want any of that in my mind as we moved forward and you feel like you knew at the end of it who you would vote for.
Vassy Kapelos:No, no, isn't that interesting. See, this is also something people don't think of when they think of political journalists. They think we're all like we got a stake in everything. My experience has been the longer I do this, the less I could ever picture being attached to one ideology.
Aaron Pete:I think that's the, that's the challenge so many people face, right, because you say you choose Justin Trudeau in 2015 and the world's going to be X place. Then we're here today and then, well, did I make a mistake in 2015? Like that doesn't really make sense because you were voting your best conscience with the information you had at the time. To say that you made an error, I don't. I don't think would be correct. But you see the kind of political ebbs and flows of the time and what's like agreeable today might not be agreeable tomorrow.
Vassy Kapelos:But I think also in the case of like people like you and I, I imagine when you interviewed all the leaders like you really spent a long time researching where the holes were in each of their arguments, right, and what they hadn't really answered, and stuff like that and so when that becomes all you do, it becomes like I can be like well, the liberals are short on this, but the Tories are short on this. So to me that's like the way it is in my head all the time. So it becomes like very hard to identify in a way that I might have 30 years ago.
Aaron Pete:The other piece I wanted to ask about and I reflected on it a bit with UFC fighter who's actually out in uh Aiemann Zahabi. Uh, . We were talking about politics and one area that I just I felt like I needed that reminder and I'd just be interested in your take was like he was like I. I disagree with where justin trudeau has taken us, but I think he has the best of intentions and I just wish somebody would sit down with him and kind of say like, hey, when you came in, came in, you had a B and C goal. Those goals have unfortunately not been reached. So we may want to, you may need to pivot now. You may need to come back to the Canadian people and say, hey, I've gotten some things wrong. I'd like to address A, b and C.
Aaron Pete:And the challenge that I put back to him was like we don't really live in a culture where taking ownership in politics is very easy or responded too well. Usually it's a confession and you're held accountable for your failure. And I think we see a little bit that with the immigration decision that they had made to step back on that. The Tories then celebrate and say, hey, see, we've been calling this out for years. We know what the truth was the whole time and they're finally confessing to it.
Aaron Pete:And so are you able to humanize the people behind a lot of these decision-making elements. What is that process for you? Because I think we've become so polarized on some of these issues it's hard to remember. I needed to be reminded that Justin Trudeau is a leader Like I'm, a leader within my First Nation community. I'm a counselor. I'm sure there's there's probably 20 percent of people who don't agree with what I'm doing, whatever direction I'm taking the community, and so obviously it's larger for him. But like nobody gets into it to ruin the country, like everybody goes in, perhaps with the best of intent.
Vassy Kapelos:And I think I might have even said this with you last time like I'm not a cynic, like it's weird, but I I actually I have a lot of respect for everybody who gets into this. It's not easy and I don't think that, you know, there are some people who are maybe power hungry, but most of them are getting into it because they hope they can have some kind of impact on the, on the future of the country. And I actually come at it with that as a backdrop to how I approach everything. It's why I mean alongside, like it's just who I am, like I'm not going to be a jerk to any of them, but I don't think that absolves them from like questioning on the policies that they're pursuing, right, that's why I'm not like, are you a bad person? I'm not, you know. Like, is this the right policy to have pursued when you did? And the question of humility, I think, and, like you know, pivoting and sort of acknowledging that maybe you had erred or that the policy you pursued wasn't the right one.
Vassy Kapelos:I'm sort of again, they're like a bit of a contrarian in that I think it depends on the messenger and I think it depends on whether Canadians believe that the acknowledgement of wrongdoing is authentic and that that person really is coming at things with humility or humble. And I think there are some examples. I think back to COVID, where some premiers were able to do that very successfully and are still in their jobs and there are other premiers who could not and I think the biggest part of that was they were almost like forced into the change, the policy change, because of a lack of popularity and they never really like, they never really felt it, never felt like they were comfortable saying I made a mistake and you can tell. I think Canadians are so smart they can tell in their gut if someone is being real about that and I actually think they have a huge appetite and a huge ability to forgive and move on if they feel like the apology or the acknowledgement of wrongdoing is authentic. If they don't, it's useless.
Aaron Pete:You give me so much hope in the world. Okay, so right now, who would your goal political interview be? I've heard you talk about how you've invited both Pierre Poliev and Justin Trudeau on. If you could this afternoon, who would it be?
Vassy Kapelos:Still hoping, both of them. Yeah, that's why they're still saying no to me. Aaron, yeah, yeah, that's. And then I gotta say, like, given the degree to which he has uh taken aim at canada already, I would like to interview the incoming president. I mean, how could I not? I mean, I know that those interviews are very complicated because of, uh, the way in which he sort of governs himself during them, but I do think, look, if this person is about to do something that could ruin our economy, like I would like to know more about why. And you know, I think there's a ton of obvious accountability that would present itself to Fascinating.
Aaron Pete:How do you keep your own bias in check? How do you stay mindful of those things during an interview?
Vassy Kapelos:During an interview I guess like it's in the preparation for one, that's part of it I try to consume like everything I can about the subject that I'm that I'm interviewing the person on, and that may be from a variety of sources, both like primary and analysis, and I don't limit myself when it comes to analysis.
Vassy Kapelos:I try to read things that you know might not be instinctual, and the less instinctual they are, the more I try to read them, if that makes sense. So I think it's more in the preparation phase of things that I really tried to check the bias In the interview. I just treat every single one in the same way, like in the moment right where I'm like well, how much is this person answering the question? It doesn't matter what their political party is. I'm like if they're answering me, then I'm going to keep going. If they're not answering me or their answers fall short and they're not directly addressing the substance of the question, then I'm going to keep asking, just as I would with anybody. So I find like it's less of a worry for me in the interview, it's just in the preparation for it where I'm like figuring out what angle I want to take or what I'm hoping to get out of it what the line of questioning is going to be. I'm trying to like get as many different viewpoints in that in that process as possible.
Aaron Pete:OK, two more quick questions. Politics can be deeply polarizing, and I think it is right now. How do you approach covering political figures who might be loved by one group and criticized by another in today's divided climate?
Vassy Kapelos:I hope this doesn't sound vacuous, but I really hope to just not think about the way they're being perceived, because I think even myself I'm perceived very differently at different times. Like, because I think even myself, like I'm perceived very differently at different times. And if I let what, on Tuesday, one group is saying about me inform the way I govern myself on Wednesday, then I'm not really true to myself, right? So I just sort of take every interview I do, in particular obviously with politicians, at its own like, based on its own merits. And you know, I don't think, for example, if I interviewed Justin Trudeau today, it would have been different than in 2016. Like, I don't care that he was more popular then or now. Like, I'm going to approach it the exact same way.
Aaron Pete:Stepping back from politics for a moment. Your daily radio show lets you explore non-political topics. What have been some of the most rewarding conversations you've been able to have there?
Vassy Kapelos:Oh, what a great question. What have been some of the most rewarding conversations you've been able to have there? Oh, what a great question. So I'm still loving it beyond, actually, and we've instituted, like some more regular segments, including one that has quickly become my favorite. It's called the Explainer. I do it every Wednesday and it's basically a 10-minute segment in which I solicit the questions from people listening over the week.
Vassy Kapelos:What is something you hear talked about but you don't understand? And it sort of arise from this idea that, like I like listening to podcasts like that sometimes, where I'm like, oh, I don't really understand. Like, for example, I consumed a ton of them about the conflict in the Middle East right, like even serious stuff, because explanatory stuff can be really helpful in research, right, obviously. So I really liked that. I was like, wow, there's, I feel like there's anyway. Their questions have been so cool, like the things that I have learned about ADHD and adults and kids, about why La Nina is and what El Nino and La Nina means, like this all over the map kinds of questions.
Vassy Kapelos:And my producer full credit to him, noah Walker's his name he finds like the best people, like people are so enthusiastically able to do these segments, like they love the idea of just 10 minutes of like here's. You know what the question is and we're just gonna have a conversation that helps people understand this concept, whatever it happens. I mean, we've had things from health to how does our roller coaster work? Why is there a turbulence? Can it kill you? Like just you name it right, nothing's off limits. And he finds the best people Like there are so many smart people in this world that I'm just every day when we do that segment, I'm like I walk away and I'm like, wow, I am like 2% smarter today because of this interview and I and I it was when I have admitted that I didn't really understand turbulence like I don't know, but it was great, it ends up being really helpful. So that's, that's been a real highlight over the past few months.
Aaron Pete:Okay, to close it out, One of my favorite comments from you throughout this conversation was the respect that you have for Canadians. So often Canadians are coming to you with information, probably submitting questions via email, reaching out on social media. However they do it, what would you like to say to your audience if you were able to respond to them today?
Vassy Kapelos:Oh, you're so nice to ask that question. I thank them from the bottom of my heart for consuming the things that I'm lucky enough to participate in and to be able to do. I actually like we talked last night, I think about the social media stuff and how people can be so crazy like. The majority of people who contact me or who you know converse with me on social media, like on Instagram in particular, or who talk to me in the street or at a party or anything, are the nicest, most like, eagerly informed people, and I know what life is like, how busy it gets, and I am so, so, beyond grateful that people take time, including you, out of your day to watch the stuff that I pour, and not just me, a whole team of people. We pour our hearts into it. We don't always get it right, like I said, but we truly, truly try so hard every day, and to have people consume that is honestly like the greatest honor of my life.
Aaron Pete:How can people follow along with your work?
Vassy Kapelos:Well, if they have TV still the four people who do you can watch it on TV five o'clock Eastern, two o'clock Pacific. You can catch it live on CTV News Channel Monday to Thursday, and question periods on our main channel 11 o'clock Eastern on Sundays, and I think it plays a similar time actually out West as well, and all of it's on YouTube. That's the other thing. Like all my interviews, we put all of the panels and the interviews up on YouTube and very shortly after they air, so you can consume stuff there. And then the radio show. If you have an iHeart talk radio station in your city, which I think most of us, most of them, most of them do, you can catch my show at 12 o'clock, from 12 to 2, wherever you live. So it's 12 to 2 in Vancouver, it's 12 to 2 in Toronto, whatever, yeah, so you can follow along there. Or it's all on podcast too, iheartradio. You go to iHeartPodcast app. Thank you.
Aaron Pete:Amazing. Thank you so much, Vashti, for sharing your time. This was so enlightening. It's always an honor to speak with you. As I said, you set the blueprint and I'm doing my best to learn from it. I've taken a lot away from this conversation. I'm sure others have. Thank you for the work you do to make sure we're informed and understand the issues facing Canadians.
Vassy Kapelos:My pleasure. Thank you for hosting me and congratulations, as I convey to you on social media, on all your massive success. Like you're interviewing every hitter, I'm super impressed, super proud and I appreciate you making the time to talk to me today.
Aaron Pete:Thank you so much.
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