BIGGER THAN ME PODCAST
Get inspired by people who make a difference bigger than themselves with host Aaron Pete. From overcoming obstacles to finding motivation, these guests will inspire you to dream bigger and strive for greatness!
Popular guests include Premier David Eby, Vassy Kapelos, Brent Butt, Ariel Helwani, Rav Arora, Tara Henley and the Millennial Therapist.
BIGGER THAN ME PODCAST
187. Karina Gould: Fighting to Become the Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada
Who will represent the Liberal Party in the next election? Karina Gould joins Aaron Pete to discuss her bid for Liberal Party leadership, her vision for Canada, the challenges facing the party, Pierre Poilievre, Mark Carney, the carbon tax, reconciliation, and the future of Canadian politics.
Welcome back to another episode of the Bigger Than Me podcast.
Karina Gould:Here is your host, Aaron Peet.
Aaron Pete:What is the future of the Liberal Party of Canada. I'm speaking with one of the candidates who is running in the Liberal leadership race. We discuss Pierre Poliev, mark Carney, the carbon tax reconciliation and the future of Canada. My guest today is Karina Gould. Karina, I am so grateful that you're able to share your time today. Would you mind first introducing yourself to listeners?
Karina Gould:Sure. So my name is Karina Gould and I am seeking the leadership of the Liberal Party of Canada.
Aaron Pete:Can we start off with why I'm sure that you've been asked this in many different ways but no politics. This is something that, when you join politics, is maybe a dream out yonder. What if, one day, maybe I have the opportunity? How have you gotten here and why do you want this position?
Karina Gould:Yeah, so, look, I've been a member of parliament for almost 10 years now. I'm from Burlington, ontario, and I've been very proud to represent my community in Parliament for the past decade. And I'm doing this right now because I care so much about our country and we are at a very pivotal moment. We're facing some very serious threats from down south of the border with Donald Trump and the tariff threats that he is threatening, but we are also about to face a really important choice about who we want to lead our country over the next coming of years and what kind of vision we have for our country. And I'm quite worried about Pierre Polyev and his agenda of cuts, and I think we need somebody who is a candidate for the future, who believes so deeply in this country, believes in the people of Canada and is going to put everything in there to build a brighter future for our country.
Aaron Pete:I know you've been asked this before about the challenges in this race. You're up against some very well-known, becoming well-known names. I think Canadians love an underdog and I think generally love an underdog and I think generally people love underdogs. Almost every great movie that you can think of starts with somebody starting behind the eight ball and working towards it. How are you approaching this race and how do you bring that mindset of pushing up against people who might be more established than yourself?
Karina Gould:Yeah, it's kind of funny to think of myself as the underdog, but I definitely am, you know, and it's been so exciting to hear from people across the country who are excited about my candidacy, excited about my youth, excited about my vision for the future.
Karina Gould:And you know, I've been approaching this race as I have important things to say, I have important voices to represent and important issues to put on the table.
Karina Gould:And what I've seen over the past seven weeks is where you know the two kind of front runners, if you will, started the race in one position and have kind of followed my lead and moved further. You know to where I'm going and the ideas that I'm putting forward, and that's something that I think is really important. Look, I'm so proud to be a liberal, I'm a progressive, I believe in a country that is inclusive, that takes care of our vulnerable, that sets everybody up for success. And you know when I think about the issues that we're debating in this campaign. Yeah, we have to talk about the macro economy and we need to talk about productivity, but I made sure we were talking about people, I made sure that we were talking about Canadians and I made sure that we were talking about poverty and the environment and Indigenous issues and things that I know Canadians care about, and I'm really really happy with that and I'm really just so motivated by the encouragement that I'm getting from Canadians across the country.
Aaron Pete:That is one piece that I've heard a lot about, and you've heard, I'm sure, a lot of news stories about the Liberals moving back to the centre. I'm wondering how do you digest that? What are Liberal values?
Karina Gould:Well, look, being a Liberal is somebody who is socially progressive, cares about taking care of Canadians but is fiscally responsible. And being a Liberal means that we are the party of the center, which means we can have policies that are more on the left and policies that are more on the right, but that they're the right policies for Canadians. And you know, I hear folks when they say we need to move more back to the center. But that kind of means something different for almost every liberal in terms of what that looks like and you, what I have committed to as the Liberal leader is that I will have a big tent party.
Karina Gould:I think the Liberal Party is strongest when we have that healthy tension of wanting to, you know, move Canada forward with big ideas but also being pragmatic and responsible in how we're managing the country's finances. That's, you know, kind of been the history of the Liberal Party of Canada, and I think that tension is good. And you know, I've always been someone who's probably been, you know, a bit left of centre and you know very proud of, you know, what we've been able to accomplish in that regard. But I think having that dialogue and that debate is important. So for me, what does it mean to have liberal values? It means that we take care of the most vulnerable, that we work for equity and inclusion, we are responsible fiscal and economic managers and we build the country where everyone has an opportunity to succeed. So that's what it means to me to be a liberal the country where everyone has an opportunity to succeed.
Aaron Pete:So that's what it means to me to be a Liberal. Do you think, over the past nine years, that the Liberals have been economically and financially responsible?
Karina Gould:I do. Look, we had a major event in the COVID-19 pandemic where we had to make major investments in Canadians and Canadian organizations. To make major investments in Canadians and Canadian organizations, like if the federal government hadn't come through with things like the emergency response benefit, the business loan and the wage subsidy, we would be in a very, very different fiscal situation and economic situation as a country. So we outside event that happened, that had an impact on Canada and on Canadians and you know, my belief is that the role of the federal government is there to catch Canadians when they fall and to provide that support that was needed. I think we did the right thing. It was an expensive thing to do, right, but I think that we would have been in a really much worse position had we not done that.
Aaron Pete:In an interview with CTV, you talked about how you get in these rooms and, of course, things happen behind closed doors. You're having conversations, You're trying to land on which direction you're going to go. That your voice. You have your own opinions. That weren't always the way the party went. What do you think Justin Trudeau got wrong?
Karina Gould:Well, so look, first of all, I'm really proud of our record as a government. I think that we have done some really big, important things. I'm not going to run away from things like the Canada Child Benefit or affordable child care, our record on Indigenous reconciliation, our record on the environment and some of the really big, important investments that we've made in our industries in Canada. But where I think that we missed the mark was in the immediate aftermath of the pandemic, when the public health crisis was kind of over but the inflation crisis was starting and Canadians were saying to us, you know, in kind of early to mid 2022, like, oh, my goodness, like I cannot afford to live my life right now and my mortgage is going out of control, grocery prices are skyrocketing, I can't afford to put gas in the tank. And they were saying like hey, like things are not OK right now, and we had just gotten out of the pandemic, if you will, and we were kind of, like you know, focused on the fact that we did a really good job handling the pandemic and, for all intents and purposes, like we did do a good job of handling the pandemic.
Karina Gould:But we didn't hear Canadians in the moment where they were saying like things are still not okay and actually I'm now entering this new crisis and we kind of got there eventually, but we got there months and years too late, and so the job of the government is to have your finger on the pulse and to know where Canadians are in that moment, and so I can really clearly look and see that that was a big moment of departure for us, and when we finally got to the point of saying like we understand that cost of living is really on top of Canadians' minds, they were kind of saying, yeah, but we told you that and you didn't respond in the moment that we needed you to. So for me, it's about making sure that as prime minister, as a leader in this country, I'm connected with Canadians and listening to what is top of mind for them and responding to what their needs are. I think that's really important.
Aaron Pete:The piece that really stands out to me that I've interviewed Minister Patti Hajdu, minister Gary Anansangare about the work going on on reconciliation and I have been amazed at how quiet your government has been on a portfolio that I feel like has been incredibly successful over the past nine years, and I've asked both of them in interviews like why is this not what the Liberals are putting forward to Canadians as an area of absolute success?
Aaron Pete:Of course I'm going to have neighbouring communities tell me there's always more to do and I'm not disagreeing with that. But from what we've seen over 30, 40, 50, 150 years, this is the most progress from everything I understand that's been made. Like I'm a First Nations councillor, we've got 35 of 89 homes completely renovated. We're applying for more funds to continue to do that work. We have new water system being put through Indigenous Services. Canada has been 100% supportive of the work we're doing on that front. We're putting in a sewage system. It's going to allow us to put in BC housing infrastructure so that we have more homes on reserve to bring people home and reduce the amount of people living homeless in urban centres, and I think that should be something that is being put forward. But I've seen multiple news articles saying that the Liberals have been pretty silent on reconciliatory issues during this campaign, during this period, during the leadership race, and I'm just I'm wondering why.
Karina Gould:I mean, what a great question, because I'm so proud of what we've been able to do on reconciliation with Indigenous peoples over the last decade. It's one of the reasons why I ran in 2015. And yet it hasn't figured out almost at all into the leadership campaign. You know, the first interview that I did after I launched, or one of the first interviews that I did after I launched my campaign, was with APTN to talk about reconciliation and to talk about Indigenous issues. You know, I was excited when Jaime Batiste was originally in the leadership campaign because I thought maybe that would mean that we would have a, you would have a bigger spotlight on reconciliation. But it just, you know, I don't know. It's an issue that I bring up. I brought it up in the debates a couple of times, both in English and in French, because I think it's important for us to discuss and understand where the candidates stand on it. My commitment is to continue doing the work that we've been doing. Commitment is to continue doing the work that we've been doing. I think it's really important to implement UNDRIP to make sure that we continue to advance reconciliation in this country. So and you know, it's not just reconciliation that we haven't been talking about.
Karina Gould:I mean, obviously, the long shadow of Trump has been something that has focused the mind of this leadership campaign. But you know, we haven't like. I've been talking about affordability. I've been talking about housing. I've been talking about making our economy more competitive. I've been talking about modernizing our social safety net and opening up a path towards basic income. I've been talking about fighting climate change, but I'm not really hearing that from the other candidates, and you know I'm still talking about Trump. But we have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. You know, we have to be able to protect our sovereignty and our economy, but also do the things that Canadians need us to do at home.
Aaron Pete:On UBI Universal Basic Income. Some, from my understanding, during 2020, when CERB was a big piece, some point to that and go. This is evidence that this approach really doesn't work. That was one of the test cases of people being able to stay home. They were being supplemented their income and there was a real slog for people to want to go back to work because of some of those resources. I heard it from friends and peers. What is your take on that? Does that inform any of your understanding of UBI? Do you think that's a bad example?
Karina Gould:Well, look, I would say that what we saw with CERB is we saw a massive cut in poverty in our country, and we saw it wasn't that people didn't want to go back to work, it was that when they couldn't work, they had the income and the supports that they needed, and we, in a way, have a basic income for children through the Canada Child Benefit and a basic income for seniors through old age security and the guaranteed income supplement. But we need to do more for some of the most vulnerable in our society. We don't have the supports needed for people who live with disabilities, and you know, I can say that, like I graduated into the 2008 financial crisis, it was hard to find a job. I got a job. I was on contract. I've never had a job in Canada where I've qualified for EI, and I'm not alone in that.
Karina Gould:You know, there are many people in my generation I'm a millennial or younger who work on, who work multiple jobs, who work on contract and for whom the social safety net just doesn't work, and so we really need to ensure that we have a system that works for Canadians in 2025. Is that a basic income? I don't know, maybe, but let's explore it and let's see what makes the most sense for our social safety net in 2025 that is not just going to catch people when they fall, but also help them bounce back up and be even more successful.
Aaron Pete:The carbon tax has, of course, become a live issue. Would you axe the tax?
Karina Gould:So my commitment is that I would cancel the planned increase for April 1st and keep it at the current level. I think we need to have an honest conversation with Canadians about this. When people talk about the carbon tax and you're in BC, you don't have the consumer price on pollution. It's a different system in BC and Quebec. What they're really talking about is affordability. They're not saying that they don't want to fight climate change. They're not saying that they don't want to protect the environment. They're saying things are expensive and we need help.
Karina Gould:We know the price on pollution is not what is increasing the prices. What is increasing the prices are inflation, but it's also the high cost of housing, it's the high cost of groceries. So that's why I put forward an ambitious plan to tackle housing affordability, to end homelessness, to help first-time homebuyers get into the market, but also to cut the GST from 5% to 4%, at least for a year We'll see how that goes but to give people real savings immediately and also to really strengthen our competition bureau in Canada so that we don't have any more of this fake competition, that people have real choice and better prices.
Aaron Pete:Mark Carney has gone on Jon Stewart and Chrystia Freeland has gone on Jon Stewart and Chrystia Freeland has gone on Bill Maher's show. And from a Canadian's perspective, in a time where it feels like the tensions are high among Canadians and Americans, I'm wondering how you digest the fact that they're going on American media when there is this high tension between us.
Karina Gould:Yeah, well, I think it's important for us to be on Canadian media. I think that's really important to support our own Canadian media and you know I went on. This hour has 22 minutes as one of the first things to do, but I also think, as a time when Pierre Palliev is threatening to get rid of CBC Radio Canada, we really do need to be supporting our local media in Canada.
Aaron Pete:I also think that it's important to talk to Americans, but also to talk to the right audience, you know, and make sure that the message that we're delivering is reaching the audience that we need it to. You were the only one to criticize Mark Carney during the English debate. Why do you think that was?
Karina Gould:Well, I pushed all of my colleagues. You know it's supposed to be a debate that is what we call that and so that means that we should be challenging each other on our ideas. I think that liberal members across this country, we're looking for ways to see, okay, where did the different leadership candidates stand on different issues? They're looking to make an informed choice as to who's going to be the next leader of our party and the prime minister. So they have a right to be able to see where do I stand on certain issues versus others, and so, you know, I pushed each of them on. You know different areas where we differentiate and I wanted to understand where they stand as well. So it's supposed to be a debate. It was a friendly debate, you know, and that's good. We're all liberals but at the end of the day, it's about the direction of our party and the direction of our country, and people should be able to make an informed choice.
Aaron Pete:Can you make a clear differentiation? How are you different than the two lead opposition?
Karina Gould:Yeah. So when they talk about households, I talk about families. When they talk about productivity, I talk about how people can make ends meet. You know, I'm a grassroots politician that has always been connected in community, and I know that politics is about people. We absolutely need to have, you know, a big economic plan. That is, you know, not a question.
Karina Gould:But at the end of the day, who is the economy? The economy are the Canadian people, and it's all well and good to say that our economic indicators look good at 30,000 feet, but if Canadians don't feel like they're getting ahead, if they're struggling to pay for their groceries or put gas in their tank, the economy is not working for them. And so the big difference between me and the others is that my focus is about people. It's about Canadians, it's about how to make their lives better, whereas my colleagues are thinking kind of at a higher level, and that's okay too, and I think we need both of those things. But I think, as prime minister, your job is to listen to people, it's to understand what Canadians are going through and to put forward solutions that are going to make a real, tangible difference in their lives.
Aaron Pete:What have you learned during your time in government and being house leader?
Karina Gould:Oh gosh, I've learned so many different things in my time in government, but I would say the main thing that I've learned is that my job as a politician is to put the human face on policy. I get the policy wonk stuff from the bureaucracy, and they do a good job, but my job is to say okay, and how does that impact people in their day-to-day lives, and is this the decision that is going to be good for people in Canada? So that has been one of the big takeaways for me, having been a minister for the last eight years. As I always push the excellent public servants that we have to say okay, but what does this mean for people on the ground and is that going to make their lives better?
Karina Gould:And then, as government house leader, the thing that I have learned is how to work with people that I don't agree with. I have to negotiate in the House of Commons every single day with conservative House of Commons, every single day with Conservative Bloc, ndp, green MPs, and to find a way forward. And so you know I don't necessarily agree and oftentimes we don't agree, but we figure out ways to keep moving things forward and to work for Canadians. So I've developed some really good negotiating skills, but also how to find common ground with people where we share different visions of the country.
Aaron Pete:If you're successful, you're going to be going up against, potentially, pierre Pauliev, who I would say is a very seasoned politician, a very good communicator, and then, if you're successful, against that, then you get to face off against Donald Trump. In those circumstances, and I'm wondering what can you tell Canadians? How can you give us reassurance that you're up to the task to go against some pretty heavy hitters?
Karina Gould:Well, look, men like Pierre Polyev and Donald Trump underestimate leaders like me every single day, and that's their mistake. I've gone up against Pierre Polyev every single day in the House of Commons for almost a decade, so I know how to go toe to toe with him and I know how to win. I won in my riding of Burlington three times. It's typically a very conservative riding and again, I know how to fight and I know how to win. And when it comes to Donald Trump, it's all about strength. And look, I grew up with three brothers who played hockey. I know how to hold my own, but more than that it you know like. I think what Canadians can take away from me is that, yes, I'm nice, yes, I'm smiling, but I know how to fight and I know how to fight for them. And I have been fighting for Canadians for 10 years in the House of Commons. I know how to stand up to bullies and I know how to protect what I care about, and I care about this country.
Aaron Pete:Last piece. We're nearing the end of this. This is going to air on the Monday. I'm wondering how do people show their support for the work that you're doing? How do they get involved in this election as it nears a close?
Karina Gould:Yeah. So first, if you've joined the Liberal Party, you can vote for me. You can rank me number one on your ballot. That's the best way you can do it and, if you'd like, you can volunteer on my campaign. We're going to need your help to get out the vote and, if you really want to, I would encourage you to make a donation. My campaign is powered by people, thousands of people across the country, who have sent everywhere, from $10 to $100 or more to my campaign. Every dollar counts, and so you can do that, whether you can volunteer or donate, whether you're a member of the party or not, and if you're a member of the party or not. And if you are a member of the party, please don't forget to vote by March 9th.
Aaron Pete:Karina, I really appreciate you being willing to take this time, and I'm grateful for your team for setting this up. I have worked with the other potential leaders and it has been a challenge to get their time. I know that they have a lot of obligations. I know there's a lot going on with this, but your team didn't ask any questions about what I was going to be asking about. They just wanted to schedule this and share your time, and so I'm very grateful for that. I think that does speak to your approach of leadership of just being willing to sit down with people and have the conversation. So kudos to you, and I wish you the best of luck moving forward.
Karina Gould:Well, thanks, aaron. Look, I'm not afraid of the hard conversations or the hard questions. That's what leadership is, and we live in a democracy, and so our job as leader, our job as prime minister, is to have a conversation with Canadians. So thanks so much for reaching out. I'm glad to have it with you.
.png)
