257. Kennedy Stewart: Did China Try to Remove Him as Vancouver Mayor?

Kennedy Stewart joins to discuss Chinese foreign interference, Mark Carney, Pierre Poilievre, the NDP, Vancouver housing, policing, and democracy. The former Vancouver mayor and NDP MP explains his CSIS briefing, why party nominations are vulnerable, what Avi Lewis must fix, and whether he could return to politics with host Aaron Pete.

Transcript

Aaron Pete 0:00

Did the Chinese government try to remove you as mayor, in your opinion?

Kennedy Stewart 0:03

Yeah, I mean there was a whole bunch of people trying to get rid of me as mayor. Uh that was all this activity that was ha happening on the ground, which if you piece it together, it was at least somewhat coordinated by the consulate out here.

Aaron Pete 0:14

Are party nominations the weakest link in Canadian democracy?

Kennedy Stewart 0:18

So my wife, that's her specialty. Like that's what she's written books on it and stuff. Like it's that she calls it the secret garden of politics. And uh it totally is. Like when you get in nominations, they are, you know, busloads of people showing up, fake memberships, you get all this kind of stuff, all parties experience it.

Aaron Pete 0:35

Is Mark Kearney legitimately attracting people from other parties or building a majority that voters did not give him, in your opinion? Because I don't think Kearney's really a Democrat. I think he's a banker. You've said CSIS officials approached you before Vancouver's 2022 election. What exactly did they tell you? Kennedy Stewart, thank you so much for being willing to join us today. I'm very excited to speak with you. Would you mind briefly introducing yourself?

Kennedy Stewart 1:09

Yeah, hey Ernt. Uh my name is uh Kennedy Stewart, and I come to you today from the um the lands of the Musquim, Squamish, and Slavletoth uh people. Uh I am an academic now, uh, where I teach at the School of Public Policy at Simon Fraser University. Uh, but prior to that, I was uh member of parliament for seven years, uh, and then mayor of Vancouver from 2018 to 2022. Um and in Parliament I was a member of the NDP caucus.

Aaron Pete 1:39

I'm excited to talk to you about all of that. I do want to start, though, at the beginning because I think you have a very unique upbringing. And I I'd really like to focus there because I think it will root the rest of the conversation. You've described your family losing its home and falling from a comfortable life into rural poverty. And I'm wondering, is that how you got introduced into politics? How does that impact how you think today?

Kennedy Stewart 2:09

Thanks for asking. I just actually uh came back from visiting my mom in Nova Scotia. So I grew up in a rural Nova Scotia down in the Annapolis Valley, uh, most of the time in Wolfville, but also uh on the South Mountain, uh, which, if you're from there, you know that it's got a bit of a reputation. Um, yeah, for up until I was about age of 12, I was in a kind of a regular uh middle class family. My dad was a management consultant, and my mom was a stay-at-home mom. Uh uh, but in the late 70s, uh Canada was going through some pretty tough economic times. And uh my dad lost his job and uh we went bankrupt, uh, lost our house, uh, all our possessions, and we had to move out from Wolfield to the South Mountain uh in a little uh hunting cabin that my uh grandfather had built by hand and lived there for about five years. It was unwinterized. And in that part of the Maritimes, uh during that uh time period, there was a lot of uh entrenched rural poverty. Um, so you know, every day we would get up at quarter after six, uh get on the bus, uh, make it take us two hours to get to uh to get to junior high school and high school. Uh and then on those bus rides, you're surrounded with uh kids that um have had all kinds of abuse, uh all kinds of effects of poverty. And so it really, you know, it went from the rich spoiled kid who took tennis lessons to um trying to survive uh in this uh in this environment. And it really shaped who I am, uh, gave me a kind of internal sense of justice, and um, you know, uh also kind of set me on my path because I had to figure a way out of this. Uh my family had kind of blown up a bit. My dad was uh present at some times, not present others, had kind of developed alcoholism, and so that was all pretty tough. Uh I turned to music. Uh, so the one thing I could do at that point was uh I was a bass player um and I joined uh a bunch of country rock bands when I was 15 and started playing bars uh all around uh the Maritimes, which I don't think uh was legal at that point, but uh that did eventually get me to Vancouver. I I moved to Vancouver in the late 80s as a musician.

Aaron Pete 4:25

How do you think that shaped your thinking as you started to look at politics and all of those other things? Like, how does that carry forward? And then I would my follow-up will will be around that seems to be happening yet again now. Um, we're not in an official recession, uh, but we have all the hallmarks of people starting to not be able to make ends meet and and falling behind. But how did that shape your thinking on politics and your role within that?

Kennedy Stewart 4:52

Well, um, from about, you know, from the bankruptcy when I was 12 to around I would say in my early 20s, it was basically survival mode, right? I had to figure out really, you know, a lot of times my my folks were absent, and so I had to look after my brother and sister. Uh, you know, my mom was trying the best she could, but she was really struggling with with uh you know the circumstances. Uh and so, you know, I I had an early admittance to university when I was 17, uh, so finished my degree, and then, but at that point in Nova Scotia, the unemployment rate in my area was 20%. So there was no jobs. And so uh me and my friend, we got uh one-way tickets to Vancouver, $100 in our pocket, and landed out here. Uh, very happy to have done that because we were able to land jobs. Uh, I worked at Radio Shack for my first job as a salesperson, and then ended up running a printing press for three years. Uh, so there's opportunity here. Uh, but what how it now that I so I didn't really have much political awareness at that point because I was just surviving, like lots of people are doing right now. Like, just how do I pay my rent? At one point, there are five of us living in a one-bedroom. Uh, you know, you got to rotate who got the couch, who gets to sleep on the floor. Um, but but looking back now, it it really shaped how I've taken my political roles. Uh, you know, when I was mayor, I became kind of quite obsessed to making sure folks uh I could try to help as many families as I could not to go through what I um what I and my family went through and so many people around me in in Nova Scotia went through. Uh, so that's why I really focused on, for example, uh building uh affordable rental housing in the city. And it and it also, you know, it made the NDP, the party for me, um, was recruited by Jack Layton. Uh, and then, you know, trying to have a social conscience and a large, uh, you know, give it a bigger voice in parliament what has driven everything I do. And even when I work with my students now, I'm always thinking about well, how can I get you jobs? How can I make sure that you get out and you're you're okay? Um, maybe it's uh slightly traumatic, like how I kind of have internalized these things, but I do realize how bad it can be for your family if you if you have to go through something as as tough as that.

Aaron Pete 7:11

I want to linger on this for a second just because I do think so many people are are falling behind and of no fault of their own. And I came from a background where my mom uh had a disability. I've never met my father. And so we we lived in downtown Chilliwack in poverty, uh, having the same meal night after night after night, uh, not always having food until the end of the month. Uh, my mom sliding food onto my plate in order to make sure that I was full as a kid. And I think that shaped me in a lot of ways. In one way, just the amount of responsibility I feel like I need to take on. Because as a kid, I started going, okay, if you buy toilet paper, you buy the 12-pack, it's not a bad deal. If you buy the 36-pack, you save some money, and then you can do other things with the leftover savings. It costs more on the upfront, but then you have you're buying in bulk or supply, so you're saving a bit of money on that front. And so I just carried a lot of that mentality around trying to budget and and take on responsibility, fill in gaps where needed. And I do notice that that's one of my vices is trying to take on, like I'm chief of my community, I run a podcast where I'm trying to address complex issues, uh, and I try and support other nations in trying to strive towards supporting their members in rising out of poverty. And when people ask, like, how do you think about like reconciliation and stuff? I always go back to poverty because that you can't participate in the economy, you can't create a business if you're so far behind you can't put food in your mouth. And so, how how did that shape your thinking about your role as a as a politician and seeing politics as the space to enact change to support people?

Kennedy Stewart 8:50

Yeah, I I mean I think we have a similar approach. Your your, you know, earlier seem a bit rough too, and it does kind of drive you to achieve. Like it it what I guess what they say is that it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. And so a lot, I mean, my brother and sister also kind of adopted the same thing. So they're they've achieved a lot. Uh, but you we were surrounded with people who didn't, right? You you know, lots in my high school, we'd have girls that were kind of 14, 15 that that were having kids at that point. You have folks that had failed multiple grades, and you know, all that kind of stuff you're surrounded with. Uh, and you just think, well, if there were more supports there, these folks could also have thriving lives. And it's a it's a weird philosophy that I have, but uh, you know, I'm not a religious person, but I kind of think about every single person as their own universe, like like within your head, with with all the people that you have around you, and every life is worth the same as every other life. And I I really get upset when uh I mean, you know, straight up racism with uh when some people say some folks are biologically inferior to others, right? That is just totally unacceptable. And I really get upset when I hear that. And you get that with race, you get it with gender, you get it with all kinds of stuff. Um and I I do think that it is the job of the government to kind of protect as many of these universes because they're the most precious thing we have. And you know, just uh the privilege I guess the one thing I didn't realize uh growing up was how privileged I was, right? Because you're busy surviving, you're going through these things. But I remember when I was uh I went to UBC for a year and the cla one class was full, uh, and I went to the prof and I said, Well, I'd like to get admitted to this class. And the prof said, Oh, Stuart, that's a good Scottish name. We'll let you in. And I think like I didn't quite get what was going on there, but now I really look back and think like what I went through was tough, but I had the privilege of being a straight white male in a culture that's dominated by that. And so it took me quite a while to kind of get over myself a little bit and then think, well, okay, how can I use this privilege that I have to kind of try to help as much as I can? And um, you know, and you kind of you kind of fail along the way, right? Like that, I have a uh, you know, you were mentioning reconciliation. Uh, I've got a good friend um uh who's a former uh Slav's uh chief, Chief Leader George Wilson, who who very kind to kind of lead me through discuss, you know, talking about reconciliation, and it always sticks with me that she says, you have to remember that we did nothing wrong. And I think, oh, well, how can you repair a relationship or how can you move ahead with a relationship if you and your ancestors and and the colonial powers are the ones that kind of inflicted the damage? You can't expect your your partner to um uh or your potential partner to kind of uh make a lot of suggestions. You have to make a lot of offers and hope they're accepted. And that really kind of guided my approach, not just to uh say reconciliation efforts, but also kind of all forms of of trying to help people live better lives. Is is like make offers first and then see if they're accepted, you know, get inform yourself as much as you can, but don't put all the pressure on the on the person that that uh that uh perhaps needs to improve things to to come up with all the answers. You know, don't be afraid to fail uh when you're trying to make things better. So I think that's kind of you know, every life is sacred, everybody's intrinsically equal. Uh the world is not a fair place, you know. Um there's there's uh people that have privilege, people who are not privileged just by luck. Uh and so the systems that we have in place have to kind of balance that out.

Aaron Pete 12:41

How did you develop your political perspective? Like as you've described, uh the NDP, they obviously like when you're a part of that, you have a certain ideological viewpoint. And at times when people go through what you went through, sometimes they get very conservative. You pulled yourself up by the bootstraps. And so those people will look back at people who are in similar circumstances and go, you need to pull up your bootstraps. Other people go, I went through this. I don't want other people to ever go through this. And so those develop over time. My perspective is very much that like both ideologies have a role to play. And the reason that we have the system we do is so you have a portion of people who represent uh a more liberal left-leaning perspective, and you have like a conservative voice, and they hash out their ideas and bring those political perspectives. So hopefully we end up with something that's well rounded in terms of its in terms of its approach. How did you end up coming to your political philosophy?

Kennedy Stewart 13:41

You know, um, you know, like I said, after I kind of I started, you know, university was a great place for me. Uh when I I did my PhD at the London School of Economics, and I was exposed to some really good thinkers. Uh, some I'm not a political philosopher, but I like to hang around political philosophers. And I became really kind of attached to the idea of justice is fairness. And and fairness is not necessarily about the outcomes, but it's the process by which you make decisions. So as long as you're like it and uh my own work is that if if somebody's permanently excluded from the decision-making process or loses time after time after time again, then the process isn't fair. And so the outcomes can never be fair. So that so I really focus on procedural fairness, like making sure that how you make decisions. So, for example, uh, when women didn't have the vote, right, uh, you know, you couldn't say that there was going to be justice for women because they weren't allowed to vote or run for office. Uh, same with indigenous folks up until the 60s, uh, many immigrants, like um, there's old uh city of Vancouver, the legislation in the city of Vancouver actually names people that cannot vote or stand for office, like different groups of people. So if you don't have procedural fairness, um you can't have justice in your societies. And and we don't. There's so many procedures. I mentioned my own privilege at university, you know, oh, Stuart's a good last Scottish last name, you're gonna get in. Procedurally, that's not fair. I should have just been on the list like everybody else and probably not get into that course. Um, my grades are terrible too. So uh so I think thinking about how we make decisions, making sure that uh that they're fairly conducted is probably the best thing we can do. I would say pulling myself up by my bootstraps, I don't really kind of like I would never have got into my master's programs if there weren't student loans. Those are government programs. Uh, you know, I'd been on uh employment insurance uh three times uh when I'd lost jobs. So that's not pulling myself up but by the bootstraps. That is government programs that are helping me. I was quite ill as a kid, uh, and so I was you know hospitalized a bunch of times. It, you know, the the the healthcare system, you know, I probably would have died if I hadn't had it. I don't think I could afford, you know, just to pay for the service like they have to do in the US. So I really think pulling yourself up out by the bootstraps, I did have that for a long time. I I thought like, oh, I've done this, but then when you look at all the support that's around you and and maybe folks that say kind words or or help you along your way or mentors, you think I really didn't do this by myself. I really, it really, I relied on my community to kind of get me there. So I disagree with you a little on that. I do think um, you know, there's my own privilege that's baked in that I didn't recognize, but there's also uh the systems that we have in place in Canada that that are uh do help a lot of us who, you know, uh don't start at the top kind of uh, you know, do well.

Aaron Pete 16:45

That's interesting. Because I actually, yeah, I'll I'll push back on you a little bit because put pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, I don't think anybody thinks that that's a result of having no uh social safety net. But I think the impetus when you did get laid off or when those things did happen, you got back up, you started pursuing again. There are people who get let go from a job and stay on EI, then start using drugs, then go on social assistance, then become homeless. And like that's that there's a direction you leaned into the resources and programs. But I guess uh the other area I'll push back on is like I understand this uh impetus towards privilege, but I mean I have immense privilege. When people hear that I'm a First Nations chief, they want to interview me, they want to speak with me, they want to understand what my worldview is. So things have changed quite a bit. And I guess my fear is that you you're you're not, I think, giving yourself the credit you're due because that there's a lot of work that goes into those things. There's a lot of uh guilt and pity that you can you can take on. And when you choose to say, no, no, no, no, no, I'm gonna proceed and I'm gonna push forward, I'm gonna get back up, I'm gonna try again, I'm gonna do this, that's that's pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, and that's to be commended. And the fact that you had those, I think everybody, even conservatives, even though they get this criticism a lot, I do think want some sort of social safety net. Now the debate is how big, how large, how expansive, uh, can we have a giant safety net that supports 20% of people? Those are the kind of debates I think we end up in. But I think you did pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You did take the challenges you saw and didn't hate your your family, hate your parents, get resentful, get bitter, and fall down a rabbit hole uh where you were not a productive member of society. And I think that's to be complimented and to be upheld because that's the only way we proceed.

Kennedy Stewart 18:36

I guess. I mean, but I'm thinking about each person as their own universe. I mean, I I referred to you know, these young girls that would uh get you know have a kid when they were 15. Often uh that's through an abusive situation where that happens. Uh, geez, I mean, that's pretty tough. At the time, there was a conservative government in Nova Scotia and they decided they were going to cut welfare for uh these these women. If you they had a policy in place that if you were uh an unwed mother, you would not be able to receive welfare. This was something that so that is removing the social safety net and and I think taking that bootstraps thing uh to an extreme because you can imagine what this does, right? So I mean I do agree that uh you know, you can build incentives into different programs and you can you can uh you can incentivize and disincentivize people, but you also have to meet people where they are. And so if you're if you know, I uh came from middle class, dropped down for a while, and have moved back up, um, you know, lots of help with the social social safety net and other other programs, but man, the the young women that I was going to you know junior high school with, that's uh that's a tough one. Like you've got a kid at 15, 16, it's already probably come out of an abusive situation. Like you're if you don't uh they are pulling themselves up by the bootstraps because they're you know their challenge would be to to raise their kid and to try to um you know, so uh try to make the best life they can for themselves and and their children. But you know, we can do much more to help that situation, which I think benefits benefits all. So I I I don't like kind of um even though programs are for groups of people, I do think you have to meet each person where they're at and kind of think about what what is how how can we contribute as a as a community to to this person's well-being. So but I think debate is healthy. And that's one thing I didn't like about like I would never call myself a socialist. I used to I hang out with socialists, but because socialists always have the answer. The state should run everything. But I think, well, that's I mean, I would you I would annoy people because I would go to meetings and they bring up all these problems and I'd put up my hand and say, Oh, I know what you're gonna say, the state should do it, right? And that but it's not true. I mean, there's lots of uh, you know, the state can regulate, there's lots of places for market, uh, you know, like you don't want government to take over all the housing construction, for example. Like there's lots of market stuff that has to happen there. So I I do think you need to be open to different solutions to be prepared to debate them. And I fear in Canada we're kind of we're kind of entrenched now where we can't actually look at a problem, evaluate it, and say what's the best way to address it. Uh and that's what I do at the policy school is we, you know, and I think um there when I was an MP, there was a funny thing where uh people would say I was the most popular MP in all parties but my own, because I would always talk to the other side. You know, I'd talk to liberals, the conservatives. I'm still, I would say, good friends of Michael Chong, for example. We wrote a book together. You know, that's like that surprised people in the NDP who always saw, you know, because and we I came when Harper was there, right? And so the conservatives were the enemy, the NDP was the official opposition, like there was no way you're always gonna win, but you could never see the other side having points, right? And I just I reject that. I think. If it's a genuine uh if people are making genuine appeals or genuine points, then you have an obligation to consider those. Uh if it's just wrote, you know, talking point crap, forget it. But if it's a considered opinion, then uh you have an obligation, I think whatever position you're in is to think about it.

Aaron Pete 22:19

I love what you just did there because I think you just juxtaposed the extremes of the left, which is what you just described, where they get very tribal and they view all of their opinions as correct, and anybody who does who deviates uh is betraying the team. But then you also pointed out, I agree with you, I would I would land in the same category as you. I think that was an excess of the right if they didn't want to support unwed mothers. I can see their argument, which would be, well, we want to discourage this behavior, we think that that's not that's not gonna be productive for society. Like I can get their philosophical perspective, but to your point, it doesn't really meet people at where where they're at on the ground, and you can never know the really challenging, unique situations of somebody who was abused, and we have uh community members who are 12 and 13 who have been sexually assaulted, and we're trying to respond to that in an appropriate way, but that will reshape that child's life for the rest of their life. Like they'll never forget what they went through. And so you have to meet that person where they're at and walk alongside them. And so I I just appreciate uh that perspective. You have studied political institutions, served in parliament, governed Vancouver. Yeah. What originally pulled you towards politics and what did holding power teach you that studying maybe maybe missed the mark on?

Kennedy Stewart 23:34

Uh I wasn't really my parents weren't engaged politically really a little bit uh where I grew up, but I remember I took a first year polyci class, and uh I could either write a paper or there was an election campaign going on so you could get involved in a campaign. And so I thought, well, I'll get involved in a campaign. And I really had no preference for any parties. Uh so I actually um I joined an NDP campaign, and uh the NDP had never won in the writing where I was at where the election was being held, and then we went door knocking and all this kind of stuff as part of the assignment, and you could go to conservatives or liberals or whatever, and uh and the guy won. He won by nine votes, is the and I got kind like it kind of turned lights on for me that uh oh, like change is possible, you know, if you get involved. And you know, I was 17, 18 years old. Uh then what happened uh later is that the ND it was an NDP member became such a threat to the governing conservatives, they appointed this guy as a judge, and then he left the legislature. So it also taught me that politics is a is a tricky place, right? It's it's it so I mean that was very early on, and then I did study history in my undergrad, um, which I uh which I really uh enjoyed. I I I take solace in history, it makes you realize that you're not really that significant in the grand scope of things, and don't don't take yourself too seriously. Uh, but then I went into political science uh for my master's and PhD and just totally loved it because it's all about power. It's all about who has power and what they do with it and how you gain power and what you do with it. And I I love thinking about power. I do it everywhere I go. I look at power dynamics and situations. I I count, I was, you know, even in university departments. I'm kind of looking at who's on what side and who who's controlling the room. I just love that stuff and being able to put theory to it and um is uh yeah, my wife is also Dr. Jeanette Ash, she's at Douglas College, she also is a political scientist, so it's all all day, all things all day every day, which is just kind of like a dream come true.

Aaron Pete 25:40

Fascinating. Again, I think we disagree mildly that I think because when you look at history, you understand a one person can make a difference. The one person can reshape a whole society's thinking. When you think of Abraham Lincoln or Martin Luther King Jr. or Tommy Douglas, and like these people can reshape things. And so to me, when you look at history, you realize that's the piece, and then you have a duty to try and make things better with the very limited time that you have.

Kennedy Stewart 26:08

Well, a challenge for sure. Take the challenge and push yourself as much as you can. And you know, uh it's an aside, but there's a thing called the Book of the Dead, which is uh in Egypt, and it it's uh basically 200 spells that they wrote on mummies as they were, you know, after they passed, and this was in place for 1,500 years. This is a practice for burying people that was so think how long that is. One so I mean when you think about your own lifespan or even Canada's lifespan or you know, like colonial North America, like it it's really nothing compared to what's gone on. And so, so I think try to make the people's lives around you as good as as you can, you know, whether it's students or people in your community, and um, and you're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna put programs in that are cost too much, and you're gonna have to roll them back, and then you're gonna, you know, defund programs that you're gonna have to put back in place, you know, and so we got to be a little more patient as we kind of walk through this in uh increasingly uh unstable, I'd say, world.

Aaron Pete 27:11

Agreed. I'd love to get into the politics now. When you won the NDP nomination in 2011, and you can correct me if I if I mistake this, you said the entire riding executive resigned that night because they wanted the other candidate to win. What did that experience teach you about who really controls political parties?

Kennedy Stewart 27:32

Yeah, uh and actually um the president of the riding, uh, it was unrelated, but actually went to jail for fraud for four years. So there was corruption within the writing executive, which I suspect happens more often than we think, and it needs uh more oversight by elections uh Canada. Like there's some reporting, but I think these are places where nefarious. I mean, you think of nominations and how it in the state the one thing I like about the US is they have primaries and they're regulated and everybody plays under the same rules more or less. Uh, but man, when parties run things, you get up to all kinds of shenanigans that you shouldn't be getting up to. So um it I mean, what did it teach me? Uh that politics is a lot harder than I thought it was. Um you know, uh that it's kind of a 24-7 uh type of enterprise. And I mean, I was pretty full of myself. Like, you know, I was a prof and you know, I thought, like, oh, I study politics, I know all this stuff. I actually ran before in 2004, uh, where I won a nomination, but I lost the election. And man, I just had such a massive ego. And the guy I was up against in the nomination was a bus driver, and I thought, oh, and he almost beat me. Like, he I would I went through my first debate and he totally wiped the floor with me. And I realized like I don't have the skills that I think I have, and I need to get better and better. And I'm still not, I'm a bit of an introvert, so I I find it quite draining to kind of go out and talk to large groups, and and I can do it, but it's not my preferred thing. So you know, I have to learn that stuff about about who you are, but um, it is a pretty ruthless game. Um, but as as you know, I mean you're elected too, right? It's uh it's and you you're never gonna be there that long, so you gotta do the best you can uh while you're there.

Aaron Pete 29:24

Absolutely. Are party nominations the weakest link in Canadian democracy?

Kennedy Stewart 29:30

There's lots of weak links. Uh I think it's bizarre like that they've changed all the uh FOI rules, and so now we can't ever see what cabinets do uh nationally. Like it really is it's so secret. Canada has the most secrecy around government procedures and in basically in the in the Western world. That's bad. Um, I do think first past the post-elections are not good either. I think we could reform those, but the nomination process that my wife's that's her specialty. Like that's what she's written books on it and stuff. Like it's it is that she calls it the secret garden of politics, and uh it totally is like when you get in nominations, they are you know, busloads of people showing up, uh, you know, uh fake memberships, you get all this kind of stuff, all parties experience it. And uh I think it's one of the main things that turns people off of politics. Like, even if you're evolved, uh involved around the edges in these processes, they're so you know, they're from the 1800s, right? I mean, we really have to modernize that. We really have to, and I think the only way is to kind of move towards some type of primary system where everybody knows the rules and you have procedural fairness because right now they're not. Some parties are better than others. Actually, I would say conservative party nominations, at least in the past. I was always impressed by the conservative party, like how they organize themselves. Like I thought it was a very professionally managed. The liberals are a little less, and the NDP not really the not as professionally managed. So conservatives do some things very well. I mean, I did spend four years in parliament with Stephen Harper, who my NDP colleagues hate me for saying this, but I actually think he was a genius to be able to bring together those factions, to be able to build a um, you know, he wasn't a mainstream centrist politician in a time when Canada was like that. And to be able to hold power for four years, uh, like and the discipline that he like that was his genius, was his discipline, and still is. I mean, he's I'm glad he's working with Kearney and others. I didn't agree with any of his policies, but how he managed things was very, very impressive.

Aaron Pete 31:34

On that note, I'd just be curious, did you see the last NDP convention federally? Because it got a lot of news because they had privilege cards and not just that I think that didn't land for a lot of Canadians. Did you see that? And what was your take on that?

Kennedy Stewart 31:49

Well, I I I mean, you know, I was with the NDP when they had 103 seats, and uh I would get up every caucus meeting and talking about getting ready for the next election. I would say, you know, you got to go contact, and but a lot of the debate was in the type of stuff you're talking about. Like I do agree that um privilege and underprivilege has to be addressed, but sometimes it goes to the extreme to the point where it alienates everybody, including the people that are so-called uh miss you know not being treated very well. Um, it's used as a weapon. Uh and uh now the NDP has five seats. So it you know, I I uh I always always say to my colleagues, like, if people aren't coming into your store, you can't blame them. You have to blame yourself, right? So something that the NDP is doing and has done for quite some time has not appealed to voters. And I think the great thing about elections is the results are in parliament when you see how many seats you have, and the NDP has to take how they manage their party uh more seriously. Um now you need to have good debates at conventions. I mean, you get wack-adoo stuff at conservative conventions too, right? You have total, and but you need to have a place for people to be able to say those kind of things. And sure it's gonna cause problems for the elected officials, but you really need to hear all sides. Uh and if you start shutting it, I mean you know, if it's if it's uh straight up racism or sexism, I think every party would stop that. And you should. Like you just can't have uh, you know, there's other places they can go work with Maxine Bernier if they want, but uh right, I mean you you know that that's the kind of there are very fringe parties for that type of stuff, right or left. But mainstream parties, they have to allow space for debate, or else you're you're never really going to to come to a conclusion that everybody agrees with.

Aaron Pete 33:42

What do you think of Avi Lewis?

Kennedy Stewart 33:44

Oh, I mean, I've I've known him uh you know, on and off. Uh he's got his work cut out for him. You know, I uh and my thought is, I mean, people when when I supported Jugmeat Singh when he came in, uh, and I worked on a transition plan for Jugmeet, like uh, you know, how to move it, and so I'd done a lot of analysis about how money flows through the organization, uh, you know, how the restructure, and that went out the window on day one, and you can kind of see the decline kept happening because uh the NDP just didn't uh, you know, they didn't embrace professional kind of management, accounting, that type of thing. And I really think Abby Lewis's main challenge will be to professionalize the NDP. I do think it is a good brand. I think Canadians know what the NDP is, I think they know that it's a party that stands up for the little guy and is willing to take on very tough challenges, uh, unpopular positions. I mean, I think about how uh, geez, I think about my predecessor Bill Sixay, how we championed trans rights, uh, way, way, way before anybody was really talking about it. And how difficult a task that is to kind of, you know, that segment of society is it just really gets uh, you know, um really unfairly treated. And to stand up, I mean that's what the NDP does, right? We we we've always stood up for groups and and I think people know that. However, they're a little confused uh when times are tough as to how we're gonna get food on the table. And I think now whether Abby Lewis is the right guy to kind of to kind of propose an economic agenda, I'm not sure. Uh but it can't just be no all the time, right? There has to be yes. So I I actually I have good friends with Daniel Blakey, who works in uh, you know, he was an MP, but he he works with Wab Canoe, and they're thinking about doing a pipeline uh through, you know, from Alberta to Ontario. And I was, you know, saying, hey, make sure you get refineries built on that, right? Like if you're gonna, I I was I was never against pipelines, even though I was arrested to stop one. I was against the kind of it just just shipping Canadian resources out with very little benefit. Um uh I do think like I can't understand why Canada doesn't focus on energy security in a real way. Like, why aren't we refining our own oil? Why aren't we getting benefit from that? Why aren't we making sure if we're gonna use uh liquid natural gas, why isn't that used domestically? Like I really don't understand why it's all just about shipping it out and not kind of adding value and using it ourselves. So, you know, is I I uh I convinced the conservatives to do uh a committee study on um on refining in in Canada. And it was shocking how how like we used to have refineries, they've all basically disappeared, and now we ship our oil to the US, they refined it and sell it back to us. I think, well, why don't we have refineries in Ontario and and on the prairies and in British Columbia? Like, what what are we thinking? You know, uh the jobs that would come, the the security, I mean it doesn't make sense to me. So I but I would think the challenge for Evi Lewis is like, can he pivot to a point where Canadians are nodding their head and saying, that's gonna be good for me? You know, that's gonna help my family, and that's what the NDP used to do, right? Leighton certainly did it, Tommy Douglas, others put your own, like climate change is an important thing, but if it dominates everything, uh you know, it I don't think it's gonna sell these days.

Aaron Pete 37:27

Fascinating. You are a difficult person to put into a political camp. How could how could a foreign government use memberships, nomination contests, or leadership races to gain influence without ever changing the result of a general election?

Kennedy Stewart 37:45

Well, uh, my last year as mayor, uh, Cecus came to brief me in my office uh to basically say there's foreign interference in your election. There, uh the Globe Mail covered this quite extensively. I saw you have Bob Fife on uh your podcast. I mean, he he was right into this. And so through that process, uh, you know, I've been involved also in foreign interference. Uh, there's all kinds of ways that um, you know, uh favors, you know, like whether they're you know, oh, I'll sign up a bunch of people, uh, they'll come, they'll vote in your nomination uh contest, uh, you win, and then they come back and say, Well, you owe us. Uh, it might be that people uh maybe it's as little as hire this person into your staff, right? So like you're you win the nomination, you win an MP, and all of a sudden you have this person on your staff that's feeding information back to the foreign government. Uh you see all kinds of privileged emails and stuff. I mean, it is it so it is the weakest part of our political system, is the nomination process, and it's the most vulnerable part. Um, and I think that and nobody's really overseeing it. Uh parties just you know, they use it to kind of get the people in that they want to get in and keep the people out with they have this illusion of democracy, but it it's it's in trouble, like in all parties. And I mean, one solution is hey, just appoint the candidates. Like, forget about that local executives matter because the parties don't really think that anymore. They do parachute people in, like this, and that's what they do in other countries. They just select the parties, just select the candidates themselves. It's uh uh it's happening here in British Columbia, actually. The um the uh elections BC no longer does really anything with the local executives. Like it if you want to look at a place where local executives are starting to really collapse and fall by the wayside here in British Columbia is a is a place, but but it does remove a vulnerability to uh to foreign interference if you if you do kind of take that measure.

Aaron Pete 39:51

Or you can make it following following up on that, you've said CSIS officials approached you before Vancouver's 2022 election. What exactly did they tell you?

Kennedy Stewart 40:01

They um it was a weird meeting, like I had no idea it was coming, and it was it was two officials. Uh one was I found it eventually was the a China expert. They they went through kind of stock material on uh how uh interference can can happen within elections. Uh they quizzed uh me and my chief of staff an awful lot as to what was going on, and then they went through a bunch of reports that had been reported publicly, but I didn't didn't know about. Um that happened before the election, and nothing else happened. Uh, but then post-election, uh the Globe and Mail, Bob Fife, and uh Walmsley, who's the editor-in-chief, came to me in Vancouver and said they had been fed wiretaps from the um console consulate here in Vancouver, in which I was included and there was collusion to to get rid of me. Um this uh this kind of carried on for for quite some time. So they were basically supporting Ken Sim and and uh as mayor and going it, you know, wanting me to go, mainly because I was very um pro-Taiwan. Like that's another thing I totally agree with the conservatives with uh is the pro-Taiwan stance. And um the liberals have been a bit wishy-washy on on that one, but I do think that the conservatives. Yeah, and so uh so that kind and then I had all kinds of other people like they they told me about um so the Chinese consulate uh during the election too had issued this uh press release saying that I was gonna burn and fire or something, trying to alert the local Chinese residents that were kind of pro-beijing that I was the guide not to vote for. So they were actively interfering all the way through the election, uh, which is covered well in the Globe and Mail and other sources. Um, I did uh I thought most of this was over, but then last year I had a team of uh federal lawyers that came to uh uh to Vancouver. They interviewed me for about four hours. And the good thing about these kind of interviews is that you get as much back as you as you give. And so all the course of this stuff, I learned that the um Chinese government had set up a radio station in Washington State that was brought, you know, so it's outside CRTC rules, and they were basically broadcasting uh anti-Me propaganda through the whole election. Uh so um I think this is quite widespread. I have some friends, some academic friends who study this stuff, and this is so widespread and uh in countries all around the all around the world. Um, and uh it's happening here in Canada right now. I think CISIS RCMP are aware of it, but the government just doesn't really take it that seriously. So it that's not good for us. So we we we need to take that more seriously. And I mean, municipal elections are so vulnerable, like it's there's no, there's hardly any oversight. They're all usually run by the municipalities themselves. There's very low information and and media coverage. It is the perfect place to uh crank up a funded social media campaign. And uh and you're not ex you know, if it's hard to track how much that costs, if it's done from outside of Canada, there's no way of stopping it really. So uh it's a big problem that I I don't think the recent commission has really dealt with.

Aaron Pete 43:19

So just to clarify, they contacted you and scheduled a meeting, they walk you through some of this stuff. Is this all super confidential at the time, or are they saying, like, hey, you can let people know because this is a concern that people want me to let people know.

Kennedy Stewart 43:36

I think the reason they came and met with me is they know I have a big mouth and I would go out and talk about it. I I really do because I think what I was uh what I remember is quite a while ago, but what I remember being told is that they were telling people and no one they said no one upstairs was listening. So they had fed a lot of this information up and then nobody was really paying attention. I mean, that's all the Globe Mill kind of covered this in a couple of stories. Everything I said more or less is is is public record.

Aaron Pete 44:03

And then sorry, what did you do with the information after you received it? Like what was your initial reaction to hearing this? Was it stress? Was it fear? Was like what would and then what do you do with that info?

Kennedy Stewart 44:15

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like I don't know what to do with it. It's like I it Caesus leaves the office and I look at my chief of staff, he's like, what do we do? Is like nothing, right? So we just conducted the election uh like we would. And I did get the same amount of votes, but the way it shaped up with the, you know, the when you have different candidates, mayoral candidates, it kind of splits the vote differently. So ended up having the same amount of votes as I did before, but the vote split gave the victory to Sim that time. So, you know, that's the way it goes. But um, but yeah, then afterwards I thought it was all over, and then it just kept popping up with the Globe and Mail interviews and with these federal lawyers, and um, and so it's still, I don't think it's resolved itself, and I'm sure there's going to be interference in this election too, because nothing's been done.

Aaron Pete 44:59

Do you have any regrets on like that you may have been able to do more or that you could have done something differently?

Kennedy Stewart 45:06

You mean uh just on this issue or just in general?

Aaron Pete 45:10

Uh just on this specific issue. I'm just curious. Like, you look back now, now you've got way more information. You kind of have a broader understanding of the systems in place of uh the reporting that Robert Fife did. Like now, looking back, would you have approached it differently?

Kennedy Stewart 45:24

Uh I had some information that I think I should have made public that I didn't. I've subsequently run into other uh examples of foreign interference uh that I that I brought. For example, recently I I was um, you know, uh I'd forgotten I hadn't told people this, but there is a member of the BC cabinet that was under investigation uh for colluding. And I probably should have done more with that, but I think that's also public now. There were questions asked in the legislature about it, and then nobody did anything. So I think like as mayor, it's not you don't really have any authority or jurisdiction or anything. You really depend on uh your for your intelligence services and RCMP justice minister to really deal with this stuff. So uh I don't know. I keep speaking out, and every time I do, I get totally killed for it. Like, so I guess probably yeah, people, you know, they they call me racist, they you know, I'm not, you know, like it's it's a government that's interfering, not a people, right? And uh so so like every time it comes up, I just say, Oh man, now I gotta go through two weeks of like people hating on me, and then so I mean I'll keep speaking up, but um I think it's higher powers that need to really do deal with this.

Aaron Pete 46:44

Um just to clarify, you said there was something that you wish you had have come forward and said previously. Was that about the NDP person, or was that something else?

Kennedy Stewart 46:51

Yeah, that's right, the BC cabinet member that was under investigation. And I think that I probably should have mentioned that earlier. I just, you know, I was transitioning into academia and stuff, and you know, uh being living in a town of 750,000 people after you lose election isn't that much fun. Uh, you know, like for the first couple of weeks, you know, you get people that are they kind of want to get in your face and say, like, who voted against you, but then it's gotta become a much nicer place, and now that they hate the new guy, uh, like everybody's nice to me. So so that's that's great. And so now I feel like and then and there, you know, with the with the Chinese interference, Chinese government interference, you know, I regularly meet with Taiwan officials, I I offer help where I can, but it it really is up to elected people now to deal with this.

Aaron Pete 47:40

With in regards to the cabinet minister, you have not named the person. Um, but I'm wondering, what do you know firsthand and what have you been told by others? How did you come by this information?

Kennedy Stewart 47:51

Well, um, you know, I've said it said it publicly before that um when I was interviewed by uh you know by these uh federal federal lawyers, um I had some early information that that this uh cabinet member uh had some links to to China, but it was confirmed uh in these conversations with uh with with these federal lawyers. Uh and so I I guess I probably I did actually after I left the meeting, I called Cecus and I told them about this. They never got back to me. But um I'm sure and I do know there's an active investigation still going from what you know from what I know is from the limited details that I have, but so far nothing, nothing has come out. And I do think you saw this too with um you know the the liberal MPs and stuff that were it takes quite a long time for for law enforcement to kind of deal with this stuff, but I I don't think it's good if you have cabinet members that are not loyal to your country. I don't think that's a good thing.

Aaron Pete 48:55

Yeah, so I'm curious why make such a serious allegation and not name the minister?

Kennedy Stewart 49:01

Uh well, I've already been sued once for defamation, uh, you know, um, because uh when I was mayor, uh there was it was kind of the rise of Trump, and there was a lot of uh racist stuff going on here in Vancouver, uh and in amongst the uh somewhat of the political parties. So I I called it out, and then I got sued for defamation, and then I had to uh go through, then I triggered an anti-slap uh uh anti-slap kind of pushback, and this went through many levels of court. I think it was appealed, I won each time. Uh, but if I'd lost, it probably would have cost me $400,000 personally. Uh in fact, I won, so it didn't cost me that much, but I think I've been through one defamation suit. So I was in the end, the court said what I said was not defamatory, but that whole process was about three years and super stressful. So I think again, other people who are elected that are higher places, whether they're in law enforcement or they're they're in cabinets, they know this is happening and they need to they need to do something about it. And I think I'm kind of in a way uh whistleblowing, but um I don't I don't need to get sued. So and I think that's why uh other people haven't come out either. Is there there have been threats of of legal action uh if if if this goes any further? So up to the premier to do this.

Aaron Pete 50:23

May I ask, like with great respect to the fact that you have been willing to push this issue, I guess the fear that Canadians, British Columbians, so many have is nobody's coming forward. Is this this isn't being addressed, nothing's being done. And so I just wonder, has there been a thought of like if you all came out at the same time and did it together rather than like you're you're vulnerable as an individual, but as a group of people coming forward and saying, hey, this is what we know. It's gonna be a lot more work, it's gonna raise a lot more media attention, you're gonna have a lot more support if you do it as a cohesive group rather than as individuals. But I guess my fear is my understanding is the premier is basically saying, I have no idea what you're talking about. And so it's not clear that this is going to be addressed if you don't do it. And I don't want to put that on you. I don't want you to have to go through the legal troubles. Yeah. But for the sake of our democracy, like that is that's what we're talking about. And I just wonder how how have you grappled with that? Is there pathways to do this in a safer way?

Kennedy Stewart 51:20

There's total pathway for an elected member of parliament, uh, because you can't be sued if you stand up in your seat and say something and you bring it up in the House of Commons, you can't be sued, right? You're immune from that. And so for the MPs and MLAs that are protected with parliamentary with parliamentary privilege, they should be the ones saying this, right? I mean, that it is known by multiple people that have these parliamentary protections and all the resources, and they're they're they're staying quiet. And they know about interference and all kinds of aspects of things. I mean, they're you know, the folks that they get the confidential briefings from the security, I understand that they can't, you know, they go to jail if they if they talk about confidential documents. But uh, you know, what happened in the end, how this came out, was you know, basically somebody within Cecus leaked transcripts to the to the Globe and Mail. Like that's how I think desperate CSUS is at the moment, is that they nobody like it was explained to me, nobody's really listening upstairs. Somebody leaked transcripts to the Globe and Mail. Like I I didn't see the transcripts, but I was looking at the reporter's notebook when I was and they had quotes that hit they had they had seen the transcripts, they had written quotes down from the transcripts, and that's what they were asking me about. So this is all hovering just below the surface, and it's gonna take uh it's gonna like it's gonna take somebody like I know like Michael Cooper is a very outspoken uh you know Sam Cooper? Uh uh no, not Sam Cooper. Um Michael Cooper. Michael Cooper, the MP. Okay, okay very pro-Taiwan, uh outspoken guy. Uh I think like somebody like that should kind of take this on as a bit of a quest to to try to get to the bottom of this stuff. Like those somebody I don't think the liberals are going to do it as something that a conservative MP should probably take on and use parliamentary privilege to kind of push this out uh and try to try to get more movement on interference.

Aaron Pete 53:20

I had Premier David Eby on the show. I asked him specifically about this allegation. Uh he said he says neither CSIS nor the RCMP have raised concerns with him about his cabinet or his caucus. How do you interact with that claim? Do you think that that's true? What what's going on here?

Kennedy Stewart 53:39

Well, I would listen very carefully to what lawyers say to you because they're gonna phrase it in a way that's not confirm or deny without saying anything. And so when you say I have not been briefed by CISIS or the RCMP about this full stop, it doesn't mean he doesn't know. Right.

Aaron Pete 53:59

So I asked, did the Chinese government try to remove you as mayor, in your opinion?

Kennedy Stewart 54:07

Yeah, I mean, there was a whole bunch of people trying to get rid of me as mayor. Uh the police were another group, like they they endorsed Ken Sim and ran a big campaign against me, first time ever in the history of the city. So I had the the police were against me. I think that you know, um, I do have friends in the Chinese community who were reporting all this stuff that was all this activity that was happening on the ground, which if you piece it together, it was at least somewhat coordinated by the consulate out here. Um, but in the end, uh like Vancouver voters decided that election, right? Like, I do think uh interference made it difficult both by the police and our own domestic police and the uh Chinese government to kind of fight back. Uh plus like I had all the baggage of COVID, right? Like COVID was if you all the mayors across Canada, I'm pretty sure of the larger cities that went through COVID are no longer there. Like all of them either resigned or lost the election afterwards. It was really COVID was really tough on local governments. Um people were really mad, like my election was 2022, right? People were really mad about COVID, all the lockdowns, you know, all this stuff. And local governments, like we were shutting down restaurants, right? We were having to work with the police to, you know, with legal gatherings, uh issuing orders all the time, you know, really oppressing people's freedom, uh, which uh you can understand has a backlash. And it's like a lot of mayors caught that, caught that backlash, right? People were that's part of the reason why I got the world cup, right? Like I was thinking, what can we do to to spruce people up? I know the province didn't want to have the world cup here, but I actually worked behind the scenes with FIFA officials, and we were able to uh John Oregon at rest in peace. Um, sorry, he's passed a good premier. He was against the World Cup, didn't want it, didn't want it, didn't want it. But we got him in a press conference to say, well, maybe. And I knew once we got a maybe, there's nowhere he couldn't go back to no, right? So so we finally got him to a yes. So I was really happy. Like, you know, World Cup's just just over. It's been a total shock in the arm for Vancouver. Uh really happy that we were able to get it here. But I was thinking about that through COVID because it COVID was so bad for the city, and it's like, what do we have to look forward to? It and why not bring the world to your doorstep? And it's huge success. So I do think, you know, Chinese interference, the uh, you know, Chinese government interference, the the police kind of I did call them out for racism within the police. Like I I had a series of press conferences where you know I was the chair of the police board too, and I was saying that police are systemically racist here, they they stop indigenous, uh black, uh racialized people way more often than white folks. We've had reports that said that and they needed to reform. Cops did not like that, uh, right? So um anyway, I guess if you if you take to pick too many fights, uh eventually they're they're gonna take you down, and that's kind of kind of what happened. But anyway, I do it all again.

Aaron Pete 57:04

Do you have any regrets on how you approached COVID or some of the comments about the police? Because like one pushback I'll make about the police, because they get this criticism a lot, and you may have other data that refutes what I'm saying, but like the most likely to be homeless and on the streets are often indigenous uh and black people and people of minorities. So they're more likely to get pulled over no matter what, because when you go into the downtown east side, you're just that's the dominant groups of people in those hardened circumstances. So it's just statistically more likely you're going to see those types of people than white people. And and that's not because the police are racist, it's just a matter of who which marginalized communities are in those circumstances. So, broadly speaking, what are your folks?

Kennedy Stewart 57:48

Like taking all that into uh taking all that into account, we still found it was even higher than what what the circumstances you suggest should be. So um, you know, and they know it too, right? I mean, like it is a very tough job being a police officer. Like, I I I mean, they're in my mind, they're workers that need to be supported. So it's usually the up-level management that's the problem, right? So what I'm not saying police officers are racist, I'm saying the system is built. It's like all colonial structures, right? They are they are they were built. I mean, think about policing at the turn of the 20th century, right? I mean, well, you know, you think of RCMP residential schools, you think of all that stuff, right? And that was a colonial structure that this structure is still built on, right? So they still have to do more work, and it's got to go beyond land acknowledgements, it's got to be like serious factual looks at how the city's being policed. And so I didn't say, you know, I know the police chief was saying, no, I'm not a racist. He would say it's like, no, I'm not saying you're not, you know, this too. They know it, they know themselves, they do their own internal studies, right? That they know, and I would say the VPD is probably one of the better um police uh you know services in the country. Uh, there's still a long way to go, though. And it your job as mayor is to call this out, right? Like you have to make the city work for everybody, especially the ones it's it who it's not working for the most. You know, the people that are kind of worse done by, you've got to help them the most.

Aaron Pete 59:23

Do you have any regrets, broadly speaking, about your time in office?

Kennedy Stewart 59:27

Uh I don't know. Like, what I went there was to build really the main goal was to build as much rental housing as I could. And even with my massively fractured council, if you look at the stats of approvals, man, we built so much rental housing, and much of it uh was uh we locked in rent controls. So we say to developers, we'll give you an extra 10 floors, but you got to make 20% of these units permanently affordable to people who make minimum wage. And so where where I got in trouble on the west side of the city, where they never built any rental housing, is we just put tons of it in the west side of the city. So kits, other spots like this, they hadn't built rental housing there since the 70s, and so we are putting in building after building, and you know, I was winning these votes on council like six, five. It was really, really close, but that like so, and that was going so well until COVID blew everything off. Like it was so brutal. I had to lay off 20% of my workforce, you know, we had massive revenue cuts. Um, if we hadn't like I I got in a lot of trouble because I said, Wow, I I'd run a survey with um with residents saying, Can you pay your property taxes? You know, right at the beginning of COVID, and 25% of the city said no. So I'm like, holy crap, that that that is going to put a massive hole in our revenue. So I went to the federal, you know, at a press conference and I called on the federal and provincial governments to start helping municipalities. I got in all kinds of trouble for that. But in the end, they did. In the end, they the Fed sent a whole bunch of money out to cities, uh, and we were able to kind of not balance our books, but at least fill that hole because you know, policing costs went up, um, revenues went down. It was a really tough time for cities. It's really hard to explain that to people, right? Who are already they're out in their patios banging their pots and pans, and they're saying, you know, no, there's no vaccine, they're not, they're worried they're gonna lose their jobs and their homes, and you're the person on TV saying, gotta shut down your restaurant, sorry. Uh had to declare a state of emergency, cancel St. Patrick's Day, you know, like it's it's not a it's not people needed a while to process that type of stuff, right? So and we didn't really have a chance in COVID. So uh yeah, regrets. Um I don't know. I would have liked to build more rental housing. I build a ton, but I would like to to build more. And um uh I don't know, like uh I don't think so. I I I think uh I mean lots I'm sure lots of people can point out things I did wrong, but I think I was very true to my principles and I try to do I always think the middle class and rich people can kind of take care of themselves. I think who we have to help is the the modern and low-income folks. Like that's that was kind of my and you can tell from the first bit of our conversation that that's very important to me. And I think that's how all mayors should be. You know, if you own a $20 million house, you don't really need much help. But man if you're if you've made it into Vancouver and you come from top top circumstances and you're just trying to get a job, and you know, that's that's a place where where a little bit of boost will help everybody.

Aaron Pete 1:02:38

So we've seen several opposition MPs cross over to the liberals. Is Mark Kearney legitimately attracting people from other parties or building a majority that voters did not give him, in your opinion?

Kennedy Stewart 1:02:55

Yeah, I mean people ask me, they ask me what do I think of Mark Kearney, and I go, he's a banker. Like, right? Like he Steven Harper is dreaming about what Mark Kearney is doing. Right? Mark Kearney is basically got Harper's agenda and some, right? Increased defense spending, uh, you know, more doubling or whatever oil and gas production. Like that's everything Harper wanted to do, reducing social services, like all that stuff. Uh Kearney's doing it in a way that Harper would have got destroyed over. But people are embracing this. So so I do uh I do think he's a very crafty dude, right? And he's been able to woo people over or send them off, he's gonna use every tool in his toolbox to keep himself in power. Uh because I don't think Kearney's really a Democrat, I think he's a a banker. Like he wants to run an efficient country, and even though that that might seem unfair, I actually think he's the right guy for the job at the moment. Because the economic turmoil from Trump is if is Kuzma gets canceled, we are in deep, deep trouble. Like it it's already bad. You're seeing housing markets drop and all that kind of stuff. Like, if Kuzma gets canceled or altered in a way that a lot of our trade is unprotected, you are gonna see massive job losses, and that is not good. So even though Kearney's not gonna put me on any panels, I can tell you that he's probably at the moment the the right person. I I do think uh I I don't think Polyev is. I think Polyev's kind of kind of reimagined himself. Um he was built to defeat Trudeau and he did that, but he's not built to defeat Kearney. So um so uh I think I think the NDP's job with Lewis is to just uh make sure Kearney doesn't uh make sure he kind of uh keeps the social safety net in place and expands it where he can.

Aaron Pete 1:05:00

I guess I'm su I'm very surprised to hear you say that because first of all, I just had Robert Fife on the show, and what was really interesting is he said something similar. He said he's uh Mark Kearney's doing a remarkable job, and he hasn't done anything yet. Like none of what he's saying he's gonna build more pipelines, that none of that has actually come to fruition. He said that he wants to change the tax code, none of that has happened. Yeah, a lot of the guests I've had on recently have been like, we have to wait and see. And so there's not a lot of meat to the bone at this point. And then I guess my other piece is like Mark Carney uh portrayed himself as an as a very environmentally focused individual, uh, came out with a book called Values and has just completely moved from those positions and has made a lot of promises, but it's been a year. He said we were gonna build at speeds we've never seen before. Nothing's been built yet. Um, as a First Nation community, I can tell you like factors. Speaking, we have heard if we tie ourselves to a pro to a project that's already near completion, we can get the Build Canada homes support because they want to tie themselves to already finished projects and show up at the end game. That like to me, nothing none of this is showing a positive trajectory. I do think to your point that Mark Carney is an expert manager. He knows how to manage things. So he's rather than participating in democracy, I think personally he's managing it because he's showing up and he's he's getting people to cross the floors. Between us, I think he is making promises to these individuals. And I'd just be interested, the Michael Maul one is an extremely um contentious one because people think Chinese foreign interference played a role in him coming on and then crossing the floor. What are your takes on that one?

Kennedy Stewart 1:06:50

Well, uh first of all, like I don't know, how long has he been in? Like just a year. Yeah, so how long did it but but how long did it take to build the the Transmountain pipeline? Like it took 12, 14 years from conception to you know turning on the tap. So, you know, pipelines take a long time. And you know, I'll just tell you something about the TMX pipeline. When they built it in the 50s, the original line, it uh First Nations, of course, as you well know, couldn't hire lawyers, so they built it through reserves. So if you trace the line, it goes all through reserve land because nobody could object to it legally, right? And so if you're building pipelines now, you can't do that anymore. So it it these these kind of pipelines will take a while to build, so I don't think he's you snap your fingers. So so those kind of like Sight C Dam, for example, that takes a long time to construct. Um, defense procurement will be quicker. I think you're gonna start seeing things show up uh that he's actually gonna spend money on. But I would say, you know, it is signing the contract that matters, and that's so that to me, that's as good as built. When a contract's signed for a pipeline or a contract signed for jet fighters or whatever, that that's as good as done. Like the money's allocated and spent, and that's the way it goes. So uh look, I I think the turmoil, I don't want to be a carny apologist, but I'm saying the turmoil is so nuts. I mean, we got an extra 50% tariffs on a whole bunch of items yesterday, right? So, so it's moving so fast, and um the attitude of the US is so different, and they're such a big partner that you have to walk a very fine line between uh you know giving away too much or or you know making the dragon roar. Like, so so and then at the same time building partnerships, who do you go to? Like, you know, China? Okay, well, I'm not in favor of that, but maybe they're the only place you have so it it is totally different than what uh any prime minister has faced, probably since uh World War II. Like it is, it's a big deal, and um I do like his cabinet too. I mean, I hate to say that, but there's no aren't they the same cabinet that they have? Well, I really like Champagne, I think he's a he is a good deal maker. I like Patty Haydu. Uh I like Anita and And. I think these are good, he's got some good thinkers there. Uh, I also really like how the like yeah, you know who Polyev reminds me of is Arthur Meehan. Arthur Meehan, Arthur Meehan uh was prime minister for one year, but he was a thorn on the side of Mackenzie King. Like he like McKenzie King would not go to parliament because he would just get ripped a new one every time by Arthur Meehan, such a great debater, and that's what Pauliev is. He is the ultimate opposition leader, he will just rip you to pieces every day, all day. But I don't think Canadians see that as a prime minister. So he if he needs to pivot to a place where he's not just the attack. And I sat in parliament with him for seven years, like I watched him rip people to pieces, and he's very good at that. But can he build? Can he build that extra 10% he needs to become prime minister? So I'm glad he's on the other side, you know, given Kearney hell, because that's your job. Um, I hope DND P can do a little more of that. They're trying hard with their mighty little caucus, but uh really the all the weight is on the conservatives now to to keep Cardi and and you know they do a good job at it. They, you know, like uh and so I I actually think the balance is I'd like to have more Democrats there, but I do think the conservatives are are gonna keep the the liberals in check and make them deliver on some of this stuff, uh right. And Polyev is good at really good at this. I used to go to the house to watch Polyev debate. Wow, you know, like my this is why my party hated me, right? Like, oh polyev's debating, I'm gonna go to that and watch him because he's he's a libertarian or he was at that point. And like it's it's rare that you get to see a pure libertarian like debate and uh really good at it. So I know he doesn't like me very much, but I did like I did enjoy him uh uh watching him debate, even though I don't agree with his stuff. Are you going to run for mayor this coming election? No, not this election, no. I uh it's too fractured on the left, and I you know, the thing with politics is you got to look at the windows, right? And I th I don't see a window for mayor. Uh that's not an ever though. Uh and you know, I had thought about maybe federal politics again, too. So I am enjoying my my time at the university. I'm 60 this year, so I guess that's a reflection point. And you think, hmm, you know, uh, do you have another ship to sail on? I I don't know. So, but it's it is in the back of my mind, and I do I do think about it, and I and I can't really watch the local news too much because I just think, oh, they've missed this opportunity. Oh, they're not catching enough federal money. That really bothers me. Like, I was able to leverage a billion dollars in housing investment over my time as mayor, and these guys are turning stuff down, and they're I just like I'm like, what are you doing? Like, this is free money for transit, it's free money like in the feds with BC, they just they don't care that much about BC, like they care about Ontario and Quebec, so they're happy just to shovel money off, and somebody has to catch it, right? And I don't see that happening. So um uh, you know, so so that would be a reason to go back is to is to get more stuff for BC and Vancouver. Uh but um at this point the window's not open, and I'm honestly I mean, I think Ken Sims is gonna win again myself, even though he's quite unpopular. Uh but I don't think that's necessarily a good thing for the for the city. How can people follow your work? I gotta I I uh I had these people study my social media, like data social media study, and they said uh when I was mayor, uh the most attacked person in Canada was Trude. And I was second. Like I would go on my Twitter feed and I'd have like a hundred thousand people that had viewed the thing I posted, and like this the death threats and this. So I like get off of Twitter and so I'm not really on social media. Um I have gone on LinkedIn, uh, but I mainly do uh my academic stuff there. So um so I kind of like this form. I like people inviting me to speak. I'm going to CBC today, they don't they won't want me to talk about uh Metro Vancouver reforms. I'm happy to do that. I I think like I enjoy the work you do. I I really feel uh lucky that you invited me here. Like I I really like what you're doing, I like your approach. I think it's really the only way forward is to have good conversations. And I and I I also like that you're uh an elected leader that that's leading your you know your your nation. And I do think that that it's very brave to do this uh when you're in those positions. So good on you. And uh and like get stuff from the feds. Like that's all I can say. They have they always have more than they're willing to to tell you, and you can always get stuff out of them. So I know you do that already. But uh, yeah, so for me, that's it. I'm happy just to uh you know, armchair quarterback for a while, and then we'll see what happens.

Aaron Pete 1:14:10

Well, thank you, Mr. Stewart. I think that the piece I appreciate the most about our conversation today is that you're not ideologically, I would say, possessed. You're not, you you don't only see things through your mind, you see it through others. And I think that's that's broadly where Canadians are, that's broadly where people are on their day-to-day, but we have had more teamsmanship on all of these things. And so it's harder to get a real understanding of these things. So I just appreciate how you approach these things. I'm sure lots of people might not agree with some of the things you've said, but you can understand that you've got some more right-leaning perspectives, some more left-leaning perspectives. You can watch Pierre Polyev and you're you're not offended by seeing him exist, which some people on the left are. And so I just really I very much appreciate that perspective in your approach.

Kennedy Stewart 1:14:55

I mean, most people have most politicians, I think, some are selfish in their write-offs, but the other ones mostly have their communities' interests in mind, and they understand their communities and they're representing their perspectives. Uh, so you do have to respect that, and that's the only thing that makes democracy work. So uh, so thanks for having me. I really enjoyed being here today.

Aaron Pete 1:15:15

Well said, thank you so much.

Kennedy Stewart 1:15:17

Okay, so yeah.